Zenyatta News

[Gemini]

Any truth to the rumor that Zellda has been retired to Lanes end?

I would certainly hope so.

[Katewerk]

They should pick up the phone and ask John Gunther for advice on how to breed this mare before it's too late.

[CorridorZ75]

They should pick up the phone and ask John Gunther for advice on how to breed this mare before it's too late.

It is always interesting to me that so many great racemares in US tend to not be able to pass on their traits to the primary generation, while Euros and even Japanese often do. Though often their daughters will produce better. I do wonder if she would fit Not This Time. However, with so many abortions/difficulty getting in foal, and mishaps, it may not be the choice of pedigree that is a problem, but something fundamentally off with her reproductive biology as the genes won't matter if the uterus and umbilicus aren't providing the best environment.

[sweettalk]

They should pick up the phone and ask John Gunther for advice on how to breed this mare before it's too late.

It is always interesting to me that so many great racemares in US tend to not be able to pass on their traits to the primary generation, while Euros and even Japanese often do. Though often their daughters will produce better. I do wonder if she would fit Not This Time. However, with so many abortions/difficulty getting in foal, and mishaps, it may not be the choice of pedigree that is a problem, but something fundamentally off with her reproductive biology as the genes won't matter if the uterus and umbilicus aren't providing the best environment.

i'm prepared to get yelled at for this, but i genuinely have 0 idea abt the effects, so this is an actual "i'm looking to learn" question
after reading this line, is it possible the drugs we use have any effect at all on their reproduction (including something as mundane as hard to get in foal and needed 2+ covers)? the drug rules are stricter there, i think, and last i read if you want to breed in germany, no meds (or just no race day meds maybe?) can be on your record.

[Psychotic Parakeet]

I have heard that Zellda suffered a "career-ending injury" last year, and was sitting out on a farm in southern California to eventually be shipped to Kentucky to be bred early this year. Obviously, it never happened, as she was back on the track in the springtime. Whatever it was, I wonder if the injury popped up again, and they decided to finally call it quits. Seemed like a colossal waste of time. :/

[Falinadin]

It is possible that top mares in the U.S. don't pass on their traits as strongly as the Japanese and European ones do, but they DO pass them on. I think it's a bit of confirmation bias that makes it feel like they don't.
Per this Bloodhorse article: http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/unlockin ... watch.aspx
"Graded stakes-winning mares produce significantly higher percentages of stakes winners (8.2%), graded stakes winners (4.1%), and Grade 1 winners (1.4%) than all other categories of mares, including stakes-winning mares, which produce 6.2% stakes winners, 2.2% graded stakes winners, and 0.6% Grade 1 stakes winners."
"Mares who won at least one race (but never placed at the stakes level) fare worse, producing 3.2% stakes winners, 0.8% graded stakes winners, and 0.2% Grade 1 winners."
"To put it another way, graded stakes-winning mares are approximately 5-7 times more likely to produce a Grade 1 winner than mares who never won or placed at the stakes level."
Now that means that a graded stakes winning mare only has a 4.1% chance of also producing a graded stakes winning foal, so most don't reproduce themselves. But they do it at a higher rate than all other mares.
I would love to see these same statistics in europe. I suspect that their graded stakes winning mares may reproduce themselves more commonly.

[Mylute]

It could also possibly be that U.S. breeders that own the champion mares tend to breed to the most commercial stallions whether it compliments the mare or not, at least in recent years. As long as the pairing doesn't nick an "F" or the two vary too greatly in size, they'll breed for the name value.

I.E., breeding Beholder to Bolt d'Oro instead of his dad or another already-proven MDO son. The result remains to be seen but we're all in agreement this seems to be more for publicity than anything else.

And regarding Zenyatta, two of her foals died before they went into training, so we don't know how they would've fared. They were also by the same sire.

[BaroqueAgain1]

You can not consider the death of the War Front filly, nicknamed Z Princess, as having anything to do with Z's reproductive health. That filly had been weaned when the tragic paddock injury happened. She looked really good, and it is sad that she didn't survive.
IIRC, the War Front colt who died after a few days suffered meconium aspiration, which could happen to almost any mare.
IMHO, the fact that they were by the same sire seems irrelevant....except for losing two offspring who had great potential.

[Diver52]

Yeah, I don't think Z's reproductive history has been any worse than that of the average mare. It's just been much more closely scrutinized. I always associate the death of Z Princess with that of a friend, who told me she'd been diagnosed with breast cancer that same day. The BC was at Santa Anita shortly afterwards that year, and a lot of people left flowers on Z's statue with "sympathy notes."

[Missbeholder]

It could also possibly be that U.S. breeders that own the champion mares tend to breed to the most commercial stallions whether it compliments the mare or not, at least in recent years. As long as the pairing doesn't nick an "F" or the two vary too greatly in size, they'll breed for the name value.

I think that's definitely what happened with Zenyatta. Of course it's just speculation on my part, but I think the Moss's dream was to breed her to A P Indy. Then, when they decided to keep her in training after her BCC win in 2009, that door closed on them when 'Indy was pensioned for the 2011 breeding season. So, they went to the next best thing, A P Indy's hot new son Bernardini, who had only one crop to race (2yos of 2010), and was cornering the market on trophy mares.

Then, by the time Cozmic One was born and she was ready to breed back, Tapit had four crops to race and was the new stallion du jour. They sent her to him......big surprise.

I just don't think very much thought went into those decisions, and unfortunately to date, those are the only foals of hers to set foot on the racetrack in the afternoon. They were disappointments as racehorses, but both are reportedly doing well in second careers.

[Flanders]

Yeah, I don't think Z's reproductive history has been any worse than that of the average mare. It's just been much more closely scrutinized. I always associate the death of Z Princess with that of a friend, who told me she'd been diagnosed with breast cancer that same day. The BC was at Santa Anita shortly afterwards that year, and a lot of people left flowers on Z's statue with "sympathy notes."

I'm sorry about your friend.

I do agree with you that Zenyatta's breeding history isn't as bad as people make it out to be. She had 6 foals from 8 breedings. Yes 2 died as foals, they were both unfortunate incidents that happened but things that can happen to any foals. She only has 2 lost pregnancies and she wasn't bred 3 times.
2012 - Cozmic One
2013 - Ziconic
2014 - filly by War Front (died in paddock accident)
2015 - not bred
2016 - colt by War Front (died as a foal)
2017 - Zellda
2018 - lost pregnancy
2019 - not bred
2020 - Zilkha
2021 - lost pregnancy
2022 - not bred

[Slewfan2]

It could also possibly be that U.S. breeders that own the champion mares tend to breed to the most commercial stallions whether it compliments the mare or not, at least in recent years. As long as the pairing doesn't nick an "F" or the two vary too greatly in size, they'll breed for the name value.

I think that's definitely what happened with Zenyatta. Of course it's just speculation on my part, but I think the Moss's dream was to breed her to A P Indy. Then, when they decided to keep her in training after her BCC win in 2009, that door closed on them when 'Indy was pensioned for the 2011 breeding season. So, they went to the next best thing, A P Indy's hot new son Bernardini, who had only one crop to race (2yos of 2010), and was cornering the market on trophy mares.

Then, by the time Cozmic One was born and she was ready to breed back, Tapit had four crops to race and was the new stallion du jour. They sent her to him......big surprise.

I just don't think very much thought went into those decisions, and unfortunately to date, those are the only foals of hers to set foot on the racetrack in the afternoon. They were disappointments as racehorses, but both are reportedly doing well in second careers.

Indy and his sons have had incredible success with Mr. P line mares, so why wouldn’t the Mosses have thought thr cross would work?

[sweettalk]

IMHO, the fact that they were by the same sire seems irrelevant

i think the point was we have no idea how well that cross would have done, seeing as neither survived their first year.

[Diver52]

I think a lot of internet experts looked at her long stayer's build and were crying for a mating with speed Bernardini wasn't it; Ziconic LOOKED quick but wasn't. . .I'd breed her to a fast horse even around a mile. Heck, how do Runhappy or Authentic do?

[Katewerk]

I think a lot of internet experts looked at her long stayer's build and were crying for a mating with speed Bernardini wasn't it; Ziconic LOOKED quick but wasn't. . .I'd breed her to a fast horse even around a mile. Heck, how do Runhappy or Authentic do?

Yeah, I start thinking that too (Speightstown?), -- and then I remember she's an outlier, at the extreme end of the bell curve for her size and running style.

I don't know that breeding her to the other extreme is the answer, unless you're looking for foals who are likely to return to the mean, neither exceptionally fast, or exceptional at closing.

The commercial breeding never did make sense. It's not like they were going to send her foals to auction. Could have bred her to Giacomo for all the market cared. Hell, maybe they should.



.

[Mylute]

IMHO, the fact that they were by the same sire seems irrelevant

i think the point was we have no idea how well that cross would have done, seeing as neither survived their first year.

Yes that's what I meant. We don't know how that cross would've worked and they never sent her back despite the issue NOT being her getting in foal to War Front. They both died after birth.

[Gemini]

Heck, why not send her to Gun Runner?

[Katewerk]

Heck, why not send her to Gun Runner?

Don't they already have a Candy Ride?

I initially joined this forum way back when, to gain insights into TB breeding from the perspective of a dog breeder interested in breeding patterns and how they work in other species.

But the more I observe, the more frustrated I become -- at the lack of imagination, the apparent inability to plan beyond one generation, and the speed at which horses are discarded when they turn out not to be superstar material vs the eagerness to breed to stallions so crooked they can barely support their own weight. Maybe it's just a distortion caused by wealth -- the people whoown the top race mares know shit about breeding. The ones who do know their shit, can't afford to buy them.

Ok. rant over. I know nothing.

[sweettalk]

Heck, why not send her to Gun Runner?

Don't they already have a Candy Ride?

I initially joined this forum way back when, to gain insights into TB breeding from the perspective of a dog breeder interested in breeding patterns and how they work in other species.

But the more I observe, the more frustrated I become -- at the lack of imagination, the apparent inability to plan beyond one generation, and the speed at which horses are discarded when they turn out not to be superstar material vs the eagerness to breed to stallions so crooked they can barely support their own weight. Maybe it's just a distortion caused by wealth -- the people who own the top race mares know shit about breeding. The ones who do know their shit, can't afford to buy them.

Ok. rant over. I know nothing.

this sh!ts me up the wall. we tossed chrome (just a recent memory, plenty of other, possibly better, examples as you've pointed out) after what, one crop? two? they hadn't even raced yet i don't think. and now we're bringing some stallions BACK after their crops actually start running... like. maybe wait? give em a fething chance maybe?
i have seen some very, very odd choices w very, very low nicks and i'm just. i can't even think abt it or i'll give myself a migraine. fair few matings of "well he's the top X crop/X earning/X %SW stud so obviously he's the best choice!" where no... no, no he isn't.
11/10 would let you rant again.

[Gemini]

Heck, why not send her to Gun Runner?

Don't they already have a Candy Ride?

Yes, but I wonder if Gun Runner's female family might bring a little more to the table. Just a hypothesis.