War Front colt tops Tattersalls Day 2

[Izvestia]

War Front is so popular over there (and possibly more successful over there too), what are the chances he could be sold to stand in England or Ireland somewhere?

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/ ... aven-day-2

[Retrospectiv]

He's Claiborne's farm saving major cash cow stallion.....and a young son of one of their best past stallions. Can't see him ever moving given they stood lots of stallions popular elsewhere in the past. I guess in the end, it would depend on how much of WF they own.....and how big of an offer they got.

I still say they gave up on Forty Niner too soon. Champion colt, and ended champion 1st season sire after they sold him I believe.

[BlindLucky]

Probably not likely to leave Claiborne.

http://www.ownerbreeder.co.uk/2014/01/o ... ront-line/

“There are 40 shares, of which Mr Allen still owns significant interests, along with [Claiborne] farm. There are a few other share-holders but it’s a pretty tightly held syndicate. Most of the people in there are people who breed to race anyway, so I think as we go down the road there’ll probably be fewer offered as yearlings than in recent years. Previously he was a $15,000 stallion and there were a lot more commercial people who bred to him then.”

[DanLewis]

I am confused why everyone is wanting to ship him to Europe, why? Is it because he sires Turf horses? Some say he is overpriced, well who cares, people pay for it, so he must be worth it. He is throwing lovely horses one mare in foal to him in 2015 sold for $2.2 Million, 1 Yearling so far at $800,000, 2 Two Year Olds In Training averaged $812,414. He has sired so far this year, 7 stakes performers all by different broodmare sires, with 4 being Graded performers, Grade 1 winner Jack Milton on Turf, and two Grade 1 performers in War Correspondent G3 Winner, 3rd in a Grade 1 both Turf races, and Summer Front who's G1 Placed on Turf, he is also the sire of G3 placed runner Crafty Dreamer on Dirt. He has sired stakes winners from 5 Furlongs to 1 Mile, he has sired 2 dirt stakes performers and an all weather performer. He has 3 stakes performers overseas from Jan till now.. only 1 is Graded that being Lines of Battle who ran 2nd in The Citibank Hong Kong Cold Cup GI.

I guess im confused when I see people say his success is in Europe, looks like his runners are doing well here. Plus he is not covering giant books like most stallions are, stallions who retired the same year he did include Bernardini who has 801 foals racing, Hearts Cry in Japan has 791 foals racing, War Front 323 Foals racing.. So maybe he would be higher on the stallion lists if he had another 400 foals that the others have over him..

Just me thinking out loud.

[Flanders]

I don't want or think he should go to Europe. I also do not think he is overpriced. He sires quality dirt, turf and all weather performers. He may never be a #1 sire because of his limited crops but he consistently sires good runners.
He has 9 Grade 1 winners that is pretty amazing from 332 foals age 3+. That is 2% foals of racing age, the only other stallions in Kentucky with 2% are Tapit, Giant's Causeway and Speightstown.
His best bred foals are 2 and under. I think we will see better things from him and am excited to watch.

[Izvestia]

I am confused why everyone is wanting to ship him to Europe, why? Is it because he sires Turf horses? Some say he is overpriced, well who cares, people pay for it, so he must be worth it. He is throwing lovely horses one mare in foal to him in 2015 sold for $2.2 Million, 1 Yearling so far at $800,000, 2 Two Year Olds In Training averaged $812,414. He has sired so far this year, 7 stakes performers all by different broodmare sires, with 4 being Graded performers, Grade 1 winner Jack Milton on Turf, and two Grade 1 performers in War Correspondent G3 Winner, 3rd in a Grade 1 both Turf races, and Summer Front who's G1 Placed on Turf, he is also the sire of G3 placed runner Crafty Dreamer on Dirt. He has sired stakes winners from 5 Furlongs to 1 Mile, he has sired 2 dirt stakes performers and an all weather performer. He has 3 stakes performers overseas from Jan till now.. only 1 is Graded that being Lines of Battle who ran 2nd in The Citibank Hong Kong Cold Cup GI.

I guess im confused when I see people say his success is in Europe, looks like his runners are doing well here. Plus he is not covering giant books like most stallions are, stallions who retired the same year he did include Bernardini who has 801 foals racing, Hearts Cry in Japan has 791 foals racing, War Front 323 Foals racing.. So maybe he would be higher on the stallion lists if he had another 400 foals that the others have over him..

Just me thinking out loud.

Simply asked a question. I really like him as a sire, but he does well over there. I wasn't saying he doesn't do well here. I was merely thinking out loud.

As for Forty Niner - yes, they gave up on him way too soon.

[Flanders]

Yes Forty Niner was Champion Freshman Sire but he hadn't sired many graded stakes winners at the time of his sale. Of course it was almost instantaneous that he exploded and starting getting good horses left and right. I'm just going from memory, and it was a long time ago, but I think they only sold Forty Niner to fund the purchase of Unbridled. They knew he was coming up for sale in 1996. The Genter Stable, after Mrs. Genter's passing in 1992, had dispersed all their horses, except Unbridled, at the 1995 Keeneland November sale. They sold Unbridled the following year with Claiborne Farm and Richard Santulli, being the winning buyers.

[Izvestia]

I didn't know that about Unbridled (re: funding his purchase). Although I think Forty Niner was a pretty fantastic sire, Unbridled was a pretty fantastic sire too (one of my favourites, of course).

[Admin]

He certainly gets the great sales, but they're totally out of line with the track performance of his offspring. A $150k stallion, who trades at $300k NG, shouldn't be 53 on the GS list.

He'll certainly get his shot at vying with Tapit this year and next with the tremendous mares that were bred to him. I'll bet he doesn't come close to Tapit if any WF fan wants to make a little wager.

Also, it's a little misleading to talk about this horse's small books. You'd think they were 40 by the sound of it. He's breeding over 100. And yes, he does look like a turf sire.

[Izvestia]

He certainly gets the great sales, but they're totally out of line with the track performance of his offspring. A $150k stallion, who trades at $300k NG, shouldn't be 53 on the GS list.

He'll certainly get his shot at vying with Tapit this year and next with the tremendous mares that were bred to him. I'll bet he doesn't come close to Tapit if any WF fan wants to make a little wager.

Also, it's a little misleading to talk about this horse's small books. You'd think they were 40 by the sound of it. He's breeding over 100. And yes, he does look like a turf sire.

At one point I may have argued with you, and taken that bet. Not so much now!

The Tapit's seem to run on anything. I am still skeptical about their aptitude for distances over 9 furlongs...yes, I am aware there are a few of them that can go farther, but I look to their dam's side.
It's a bit shocking to see War Front SO FAR down the General Sires list, and still demanding that price, and still selling as well as he does. They can't all be crazy, we are missing something, I am sure.

[Flanders]

He certainly gets the great sales, but they're totally out of line with the track performance of his offspring. A $150k stallion, who trades at $300k NG, shouldn't be 53 on the GS list.

He'll certainly get his shot at vying with Tapit this year and next with the tremendous mares that were bred to him. I'll bet he doesn't come close to Tapit if any WF fan wants to make a little wager.

Also, it's a little misleading to talk about this horse's small books. You'd think they were 40 by the sound of it. He's breeding over 100. And yes, he does look like a turf sire.

I like both of them, I think they are both fantastic sires. Yes War Front is breeding over 100 mares in his last couple books but he hadn't before that. His average foal crop(of age 2+) is 66, while Tapit's is 108.
Quite a few of War Front's foals are in Europe. Their flat racing season just started at the end of March.

I think when you compare their numbers, they are pretty similar. I am not including their 2yos in the stats because neither have had any starters. The % are out of foals of racing age, aged 3+, unless otherwise noted.

Tapit: (7 crops age 3+) 109 (2yos)
761 (foals age 3+)
635 Starters (83.4%)
472 Winners (62.0%)
17 Grade 1 Winners (2.2%)
39 Graded Stakes Winners (5.1%)
62 Stakes Winners (8.1%)
Earnings: $74,580,571
Avg Earnings/Starter: $117,449

War Front: (5 crops age 3+) 66 (2yos)
332 (foals age 3+)
256 Starters (77.1%)
175 Winners (52.7%)
9 Grade 1 Winners (2.7%)
20 Graded Winners (6.0%)
34 Stakes Winners (10.2%)
Earnings: $27,312,709
Avg. Earnings/Starter: $106,690

[sweettalk]

A $150k stallion, who trades at $300k NG

not into breeding all that much, so can someone explain what this means? why pay 300 NG if you can pay 150 guarantee? is that where the trade comes in (and what does that mean)?

[Flanders]

A $150k stallion, who trades at $300k NG

not into breeding all that much, so can someone explain what this means? why pay 300 NG if you can pay 150 guarantee? is that where the trade comes in (and what does that mean)?

Trades are what a spot in a stallion's book are selling for on the private market. War Front has a limited book and is booked full. So there are no available spots at the 150k guarantee. The breeder really wants to go to the stallion. They have to find someone who is willing to sell their spot in the book. With the demand for War Front, they can sell the spots for 300k no guarantee. This allows the seller of the spot to still get money. If they sold with a live foal guarantee and the mare didn't have a foal, they would get nothing.

[sweettalk]

ooh, gotacha. thanks flanders!

[General Assembly]

He's going to be pretty far down the list this time of the year since so many of his best offspring were sold to run overseas, particularly Europe. His stats will go up as their season gets going.

[Indiano]

Purses are generally lower in Europe too for all except the biggest races, so if one stallion has comparatively more runners competing in Europe he's going to be lower down the list if you're just looking at money earned.

I think the data points posted upthread are a lot more useful than just looking at the general sires list.

[Admin]

Do you two have any data regarding WF's offspring which are overseas? As best I can tell, it looks to me that the majority of his current performers and lifetime best offspring are/were run in the States. I also don't see when looking at the sales results that a majority were sold to overseas entities.

Regarding his runners not getting earnings this early in the year, alright, let's look at where he finished the year last year. At #34. In Europe, he finished at #50.

WF's obviously a nice stallion but he's the only one in the past 25 years that I can recall whose fee is SO out of line with the track performance of his offspring.

[mimi6920]

I would submit Bernardini as being price way out of line with his results on the track. He got nothing but the best mares since he began at stud, and his results were constantly underwhelming (in my opinion). The market has corrected with him somewhat, but still, given the volume and quality of mares bred, he should be a perennial leader. In 2013, he finished the year 55th on the general sire list on a fee of 100k. That same year, War Front finished 5th on the general sire list with a little more than half the runners that Bernardini had (War Front 127, B 209).

However, I do think War Front has cooled since then. Last year he finished in 34th on the general sire list. It is still early in the year at the moment, but if he doesn't improve, I would expect a sharp reduction in fee for next year.

[Flanders]

Do you two have any data regarding WF's offspring which are overseas? As best I can tell, it looks to me that the majority of his current performers and lifetime best offspring are/were run in the States. I also don't see when looking at the sales results that a majority were sold to overseas entities.

Regarding his runners not getting earnings this early in the year, alright, let's look at where he finished the year last year. At #34. In Europe, he finished at #50.

WF's obviously a nice stallion but he's the only one in the past 25 years that I can recall whose fee is SO out of line with the track performance of his offspring.

I went through his 2yos on Pedigree Query, out of the 36 listed there was one duplicate, one named who really isn't, and two that are listed as 00(their dam's names). I made sure they were real and were War Fronts. Of those 35, 22 have been exported. I really don't feel like going through all his other crops but it seems like Joe Allen sends all his to Europe.

[Admin]

Interesting, Flanders, and im sure a lot of work so thanks.