Fasig Tipton November 2014

[Izvestia]

And WHAT have those mares produced??? And, if you compare them to mares that are still here (in their same birth year), we still have plenty of good mares over here.

Any HOYs, champions?

yes, Azeri has produced Wine Princess, a good graded SW over here. But she hasn't produced herself.

Do you cry when horses are sold to Ireland?

[BlindLucky]

I'll Have Another is a son of FLOWER ALLEY.... who is still here, and not exactly a standout.

He was just sold to South Africa.

[Izvestia]

AND, if people see the value in the mares enough to buy them and spend more than the Japanese buyers, they will. If the Japanese buyers see more value in them, and will pay more, then how is that a reason to be so distraught over it? I think this all stems from the Ferdinand fiasco. But, guess what, we see nicely bred horses going through meat auctions. Nicely bred horses disappear here too.

It's not like we don't see their pedigrees elsewhere in North America. Take Palace Malice. He will be standing in North America, so you can enjoy Palace Rumor's "blood" through him. There's no guarantee she will produce another Palace Malice.

Same goes for Smok'n Frolic. She produced a good-ish one in Hunters Bay. Go breed to him, if you think she is missed so badly.

And by telling me Flower Alley has gone to South Africa.... doesn't that sort of just show you that there is no real drive for I'll Have Another here?

[Horsebagger]

The predominate voices complaining about 'losing' stallions and mares to Japan and other foreign markets are the fans of these horses when they ran. Where are the specific breeders complaining that IHA or In Lingerie are no longer in the US? Maybe they are complaining, but I must have missed those articles and conversations. It's a worldwide industry, and good stallions and mares could very well command higher values outside of our borders, for a variety of reasons. But that doesn't necesarily translate to a quantifiable 'loss' to the industry here.

[BlindLucky]

And, the year Roses In May was a top racehorse... you know who "we" got to keep in North America... Ghostzapper! That was the best of the best that year.

Empire Maker was also in that crop. Sometimes selling off stock is good, sometimes not so much

[mariasmon]

And WHAT have those mares produced??? And, if you compare them to mares that are still here (in their same birth year), we still have plenty of good mares over here.

Any HOYs, champions?

yes, Azeri has produced Wine Princess, a good graded SW over here. But she hasn't produced herself.

Do you cry when horses are sold to Ireland?

Obviously, none of them have produced champions thus far. Some of them are too young to have produced much of anything to even race, but In Lingerie has an outstanding pedigree that I wish would've remained in the US. A number of the ones I mentioned have produced SW/GSW. Topliner and Palace Rumor have produced G1W. Smok'n Frolic produced a GSW. Everything out of Azeri that raced in the US has shown some talent, which is actually pretty remarkable. Proud Spell's first foal was a SW. Her 3YO didn't race, but her 2YO debuts tomorrow.

Who's crying? It seems like you are getting a lot more bent out of shape than anyone else.

[Private Thoughts]

Stardom Bound (champion 2 year old filly), TapitsFly(gr. 1 stakes winner), Zazu(gr. 1 stakes winner), Gabby's Golden Gal(gr. 1 winner), Awesome Feather(champion 2 year old filly), Island Fashion(gr. 1 winner), Persistently(gr. 1 winner), Ermine(gr. 1 winner), Payton d'Oro(gr. 2 winner, gr. 1 placed), Gozzip Girl(gr. 1 winner), Open Mind(champion 2 & 3 year old filly, Filly Triple Crown winner), Ultra Blend (gr. 1 winner).

These are just the best that haven't been mentioned off the top of my head. It seems anymore if a horse is any good here in the States (or pretty much anywhere in the world anymore), either male or female, the Japanese snap up the dam.

The point I try to make is that you cannot keep selling off mares like this and expect to have good horses. You just cannot.

As for Japan, Sunday Silence had alot of champion offspring. How many ever made it to our shores? ONE. Out of how many? That is pathetic. Japan is a very small island, and where the horses are raised is even smaller. The area can only sustain so many animals. But they keep buying and buying and buying. And we keep selling and selling and selling.

As for stallion that have left, Johannesburg was an excellent stallion here. He was doing quite well. As was Forty Niner. Then there is Empire Maker who was not suffering from a lack of ladies here in the states.

[Somnambulist]

To be fair, we keep a lot of horses here too.

I think the people who think the stock here is bad are just falling victim to the American mentality of first world problems when our dozens of G1 winners aren't good enough for us.

[Izvestia]

To be fair, we keep a lot of horses here too.

I think the people who think the stock here is bad are just falling victim to the American mentality of first world problems when our dozens of G1 winners aren't good enough for us.

Exactly.

Like Horsebagger says it's not the actual breeders and owners in the industry complaining, it is fans of horses.

The ongoing complaining about "fan favourites" going to Japan gets old. There seems to be a real issue with Japan and Korea, more than any other country. Horses go to other countries too.

[hadrianmarcus]

People might forget that Calumet Farm sold Coaltown and Whirlaway to French breeders in the early 1950’s. Juggling risk versus reward and cashing out to foreign buyers isn’t anything new in the American horse industry. But profitable business practices aren’t always wise ones in the long-term. In countries such as Germany, Japan, and to a lesser effect, Ireland, breeding (and selling) decisions are made based not only on profitability but overall betterment of the breed.

America’s horse industry is profit-motivated, pure and simple. Cash out quickly and make a profit. The popularity of stallions that throw precocious (and fragile and distance-challenged) offspring is a testament to that short-sighted mindset in the American market. I’m pleased and proud that these mares generate such interest from Japan and Ireland. But I am disappointed that other than Whisper Hill and a few others, Americans aren’t willing or able to outbid foreign interests for their own broodmares.

But don’t tell me with a straight face that selling your elite broodmare prospects to the competition in the world marketplace doesn’t come will risk. Remember, one single horse, Sunday Silence, made Japan a genuine player. I expect this November Sale’s elite broodmares to be redistributed in the same manner as the last few years. And Kentucky will be richer for it…..unless Azeri or Mizdirection or some foreign-bound mare…produces the next Northern Dancer.

[Private Thoughts]

To be fair, we keep a lot of horses here too.

I think the people who think the stock here is bad are just falling victim to the American mentality of first world problems when our dozens of G1 winners aren't good enough for us.

Not hardly. And as far as things go, yes, I do worry about my world first. I live in it as do people I love and care about. I guess I should worry about other countries first and let mine subsist off the dregs? That is pure foolishness.

While I am a fan, I also am concerned about pedigrees and bloodlines. Yes, we have sold stock overseas to Japan for a long time, usually the culls who could not cut it here in the States. Even if they were classic winners, etc., usually they had less than stellar stud careers and were sold to cut their loses.

Why don't I have a problem with selling to Ireland, etc.? Usually their horses tend to come here to race in the bigger races, alot of times their mares are here in the States or spend time here their offspring will race here. You also have a chance to get some of the better stallions to stand stud here; Coolmore brings alot of their stallions here, Capo Blanco, Giant's Causeway, Henrythenavigator, etc.

Does Japan? No. They buy them and hoard them. Plain and simple. They have stallions that are breeding and handful of mares every year, not earning their keep. Do they offer to sell them or lease them to the US, when alot clearly have US pedigrees? Of course not. Why? What did the Japanese poster say a while back? GIVE THEM SALT. In other words, screw us. We are foolish enough to sell our diamonds, so tough darts. And they laugh all the way to the bank. Also, how many of their horses or offspring of their breeding stock race here? Not many at all.

And yes, then there is the issue with what happens to them at the end of their days. While some are retired, most are not. According to the JRA, about 95% go to slaughter for pet food. So while 5% end up in retirement parks, the vast majority do not.

And while people like to rag on fans, fans pay the bills. If fans don't show up, tracks close, tracks close, there is no need for your product, thoroughbred race horses. So in the long run, you are putting yourself out of business. And once the stock here has reached a point of mediocrity, do you really think those foreign buyers with deep pockets will come calling for our product? I doubt it. So no fans, no tracks, no bloodstock, no business. Very simple.

[Horsebagger]

To be fair, we keep a lot of horses here too.

I think the people who think the stock here is bad are just falling victim to the American mentality of first world problems when our dozens of G1 winners aren't good enough for us.

Not hardly. And as far as things go, yes, I do worry about my world first. I live in it as do people I love and care about. I guess I should worry about other countries first and let mine subsist off the dregs? That is pure foolishness.

While I am a fan, I also am concerned about pedigrees and bloodlines. Yes, we have sold stock overseas to Japan for a long time, usually the culls who could not cut it here in the States. Even if they were classic winners, etc., usually they had less than stellar stud careers and were sold to cut their loses.

Why don't I have a problem with selling to Ireland, etc.? Usually their horses tend to come here to race in the bigger races, alot of times their mares are here in the States or spend time here their offspring will race here. You also have a chance to get some of the better stallions to stand stud here; Coolmore brings alot of their stallions here, Capo Blanco, Giant's Causeway, Henrythenavigator, etc.

Does Japan? No. They buy them and hoard them. Plain and simple. They have stallions that are breeding and handful of mares every year, not earning their keep. Do they offer to sell them or lease them to the US, when alot clearly have US pedigrees? Of course not. Why? What did the Japanese poster say a while back? GIVE THEM SALT. In other words, screw us. We are foolish enough to sell our diamonds, so tough darts. And they laugh all the way to the bank. Also, how many of their horses or offspring of their breeding stock race here? Not many at all.

And yes, then there is the issue with what happens to them at the end of their days. While some are retired, most are not. According to the JRA, about 95% go to slaughter for pet food. So while 5% end up in retirement parks, the vast majority do not.

And while people like to rag on fans, fans pay the bills. If fans don't show up, tracks close, tracks close, there is no need for your product, thoroughbred race horses. So in the long run, you are putting yourself out of business. And once the stock here has reached a point of mediocrity, do you really think those foreign buyers with deep pockets will come calling for our product? I doubt it. So no fans, no tracks, no bloodstock, no business. Very simple.

This post, in general, is a mess. There is nothing 'simple' about this issue, no different than any other macro-level economic issue for world-wide industries, which thoroughbred breeding and racing is. Saying it's 'simple' is an easy way for fans to justify and defend their disappointment. While your arguments are for the most part generalizations (riddled with 'we's and 'they's), your use of the Irish/Coolmore to justify the validity of THEIR purchases of US breeding stock vs those by the Japanese made me laugh. You think the decisions that Coolmore is making aren't completely driven with the bottom-line in mind? Which is the same reason why US breeders are selling some of their stock, which is the basis for your apparent outrage. Please.

Let the Japanese buy as they attempt to grow their own industry. There really isn't anything wrong with that. There was a time when we in the United States feared that the Japanese would eventually own all of the US when they were buying trophy office buildings from US owners all over the country for ridiculous money. Until they were faced with the fact they ultimately overpaid, and those same US owners began buying back those buildings at a significant discount to what they sold them for. More recently, it's Chinese money buying US assets. My point? US breeders are smart people and know their industry better than you do. That's the fact that is 'simple'. The sky isn't falling.

[carole]

Americans breed to sell. It is no wonder their horses appeal to so many foreigners when they go through the sales ring! I think when the US horse racing industry focuses on breeding to race rather than breeding to sell, they will find their stock will be far more durable and able to go a whole racing career without major injuries or without early retirements.

[Somnambulist]

And yes, then there is the issue with what happens to them at the end of their days. While some are retired, most are not. According to the JRA, about 95% go to slaughter for pet food. So while 5% end up in retirement parks, the vast majority do not.

This will not be a popular response. I love horses. I ride horses, I work with horses, I voluntarily give freely of my weekends and time - essentially working 7 days a week - to be around horses. I hope one day I am financially sound enough to become the crazy horse lady and think all horses deserve a wonderful life. But just because in America we have a major disdain with slaughter does not make this the correct or incorrect view. It means we were raised differently and I'm not about to go judge an entire country for having a different mindset when if I grew up in it I might feel similarly. The fact that these horses are going to Japan specifically is what bothers people.

I am also a racing fan and don't really try to poop on them, as I don't like poop on myself. However it is absolutely first world problems. I want to say give them salt too after constantly reading the closed-minded attitudes I often read about horses being sold to Asian countries - and I'm sitting stateside. Hundreds of good stock stay here but it's the ones that don't that get all the attention.
Quite honestly, this is a global market for most industries and it's likely only to get more pronounced from here. My advice is to get used to it.

[serenassong]

Correct me if I am wrong- but since the whole thing that happened with Exceller and Ferdinand incidents came out- don't most horses have a clause in there now that the horse is to be returned to the US if they are no longer able to bred?

[Izvestia]

To be fair, we keep a lot of horses here too.

I think the people who think the stock here is bad are just falling victim to the American mentality of first world problems when our dozens of G1 winners aren't good enough for us.

Not hardly. And as far as things go, yes, I do worry about my world first. I live in it as do people I love and care about. I guess I should worry about other countries first and let mine subsist off the dregs? That is pure foolishness.

While I am a fan, I also am concerned about pedigrees and bloodlines. Yes, we have sold stock overseas to Japan for a long time, usually the culls who could not cut it here in the States. Even if they were classic winners, etc., usually they had less than stellar stud careers and were sold to cut their loses.

Why don't I have a problem with selling to Ireland, etc.? Usually their horses tend to come here to race in the bigger races, alot of times their mares are here in the States or spend time here their offspring will race here. You also have a chance to get some of the better stallions to stand stud here; Coolmore brings alot of their stallions here, Capo Blanco, Giant's Causeway, Henrythenavigator, etc.

Does Japan? No. They buy them and hoard them. Plain and simple. They have stallions that are breeding and handful of mares every year, not earning their keep. Do they offer to sell them or lease them to the US, when alot clearly have US pedigrees? Of course not. Why? What did the Japanese poster say a while back? GIVE THEM SALT. In other words, screw us. We are foolish enough to sell our diamonds, so tough darts. And they laugh all the way to the bank. Also, how many of their horses or offspring of their breeding stock race here? Not many at all.

And yes, then there is the issue with what happens to them at the end of their days. While some are retired, most are not. According to the JRA, about 95% go to slaughter for pet food. So while 5% end up in retirement parks, the vast majority do not.

And while people like to rag on fans, fans pay the bills. If fans don't show up, tracks close, tracks close, there is no need for your product, thoroughbred race horses. So in the long run, you are putting yourself out of business. And once the stock here has reached a point of mediocrity, do you really think those foreign buyers with deep pockets will come calling for our product? I doubt it. So no fans, no tracks, no bloodstock, no business. Very simple.

"Fans pay the bills"...best line ever. Umm, out of curiosity, do you own horses? I do. I own a pain-in-the-ass OTTB that is bloody expensive and needs special diet and care from his life at the track (but so worth it). And yet as a HUGE fan, I haven't once seen a bill from Pin Oak Farm for Sky Classic. Maybe it got lost in the mail?

Also, your whole rant about Japan being hoarders is sort of frightening. Did you ever think in other cultures they do things a little differently than America? Also, along that thought, what The Sleepwalker said - they eat horse in other cultures. For example, in Mongolia, they use horses for transportation and for meat. Until you basically become Lord of all Humans, you can't really control that.

Food for thought... go to an auction over here in North America and have a look at the horses, OTTBs especially, that go through the ring. You can get them cheap for $300.

[serenassong]

Correct me if I am wrong- but since the whole thing that happened with Exceller and Ferdinand incidents came out- don't most horses have a clause in there now that the horse is to be returned to the US if they are no longer able to bred?

Only private sales can contain such clauses.

Ah, ok.

[bare it all]

If I plan to be in/around Lexington on the weekend before the sale, is anyone permitted on the sales grounds to look at the horses (a la KEE)?

[Somnambulist]

Well, I don't personally excuse something I consider inexcusable as a cultural difference. That doesn't necessarily make something right. And it also makes no sense as a defense against someone worrying about the safety of the horse -- if anything, saying "that's how they do it over there" just heightens the worry.

Wasn't even offering it up as defense. I am personally not really ok with horse slaughter, but understand that's probably just how I was raised. Regardless, it's the mass amount of internet econcomists that are really just annoying. Although I did enjoy the italics of my name. Little did I know a song title would ever look like a ship's name.

As a fan it does suck when a horse goes to a foreign country. But the close minded Japan is gonna stick Azeri in their udon noodles thing every time some horse goes over there is

[mariasmon]

The Japanese farms have generally been better than most US ones as far as sharing info on the top mares they have. There have been updates in the last few months on many US mares who've gone to Japan, including Ginger Punch, Lady Joanne, Weemissfrankie and In Lingerie.