2024 TRAVERS

[Curtis]

Yep, we'd made our way into the grandstand by then! She was a Cal-bred IIRC and I was crushed by the DQ on a pride-of-state basis. Owned by Earl Scheib of the auto-painting business--"99 dollars, no ups no extras!"

Earl Scheib, who ran under the banner, Green Thumb Farm Stable. I remember when those paint jobs were $29.95, punctuated with a lusty, gravelly, “Riiiiiiiiiiiight!” He brought two good stallions to CA, Bicker and Saros. The latter, Fran’s Valentine’s sire, really stamped his get. They were almost all muddy bays with a pinched face like him. Fran had her some chrome though. Two years later she chased Lady’s Secret around Santa Anita while finishing 2nd in the BC Distaff. She was a nice mare. Good broodmare too.

[MySaladDays]

I play mostly foreign races now, HKJC, JRA, and in winter here, Aussie races because I enjoy seeing the greenery of their opposite seasons. Most of the handlers are female which is very different from here. and of course, no outriders. Horses are horses and humans are humans. I have had many female canines who were more powerful than any males in field trials, etc.

I think we make too much of all this. Sodashi, Almond Eye, Liberty Island, Gentildonna, Enable, Ouija Board , Bosra Sham, Dahlia, Zarkava, Makybe Diva, Sunline, Urban Sea, Allez France, Shamida, Gallinaria, Salsabil , Black Caviar, etc. cured me of making too many extreme distinctions whether they raced against the boys or not..... Of course going back to early times, 1800s, I dont think there's ever been one better than Kincsem winning 54 races.

....as did many of the U.S. mares and fillies who beat the boys (and I imagine we'd have a lot more on that list IF more females had run against males in U.S. racing. Unfortunately does not happen often enough ) but I am quite sure we'd have a longer list if they just entered.

[Missbeholder]

Yep, we'd made our way into the grandstand by then! She was a Cal-bred IIRC and I was crushed by the DQ on a pride-of-state basis. Owned by Earl Scheib of the auto-painting business--"99 dollars, no ups no extras!"

Earl Scheib, who ran under the banner, Green Thumb Farm Stable. I remember when those paint jobs were $29.95, punctuated with a lusty, gravelly, “Riiiiiiiiiiiight!” He brought two good stallions to CA, Bicker and Saros. The latter, Fran’s Valentine’s sire, really stamped his get. They were almost all muddy bays with a pinched face like him. Fran had her some chrome though. Two years later she chased Lady’s Secret around Santa Anita while finishing 2nd in the BC Distaff. She was a nice mare. Good broodmare too.

Gawd, I remember those ads! They were such an iconic slice of life, at least here in California. "I'll paint any car any color for $29.95!"in that great gravelly voice!

His other stallion, Bicker, was Frannie's broodmare sire. She was such a nice filly! 3-time GI winner at three (KY Oaks, Santa Susanna, Hol Oaks), but also had three significant 2nds in GIs (Hol Starlet, Alabama, and BC Distaff). In the Starlet at 2, she was beaten, ironically, by Outstandingly. Also, germane to recent discussions, at age 3 she beat the boys on dirt at 8.5 furlongs in an ungraded stakes called the Yankee Valor. AND.....she was the dam of the wonderful With Anticipation!

[stark]

When $10 dollars was worth $10 dollars....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V3RowpnHyo

[Curtis]

Yep, we'd made our way into the grandstand by then! She was a Cal-bred IIRC and I was crushed by the DQ on a pride-of-state basis. Owned by Earl Scheib of the auto-painting business--"99 dollars, no ups no extras!"

Earl Scheib, who ran under the banner, Green Thumb Farm Stable. I remember when those paint jobs were $29.95, punctuated with a lusty, gravelly, “Riiiiiiiiiiiight!” He brought two good stallions to CA, Bicker and Saros. The latter, Fran’s Valentine’s sire, really stamped his get. They were almost all muddy bays with a pinched face like him. Fran had her some chrome though. Two years later she chased Lady’s Secret around Santa Anita while finishing 2nd in the BC Distaff. She was a nice mare. Good broodmare too.

Gawd, I remember those ads! They were such an iconic slice of life, at least here in California. "I'll paint any car any color for $29.95!"in that great gravelly voice!

His other stallion, Bicker, was Frannie's broodmare sire. She was such a nice filly! 3-time GI winner at three (KY Oaks, Santa Susanna, Hol Oaks), but also had three significant 2nds in GIs (Hol Starlet, Alabama, and BC Distaff). In the Starlet at 2, she was beaten, ironically, by Outstandingly. Also, germane to recent discussions, at age 3 she beat the boys on dirt at 8.5 furlongs in an ungraded stakes called the Yankee Valor. AND.....she was the dam of the wonderful With Anticipation!

I think the Yankee Valor became the Goodwood which became the Awesome Again. There was a history of mares beating males at the old Oak Tree meet. Fifty years ago in 1974, Charlie Whittingham—the mentor of Joe Manzi, Fran Valentine’s trainer—swept the Carlton F. Burke and Oak Tree Invitational with Tallahto who was the country’s best mare that year not named Desert Vixen or Dahlia. Tallahto was also quite a broodmare, her best offspring being the filly Hidden Light but Tallahto produced a number of nice runners.

[Flanders]

Earl Scheib, who ran under the banner, Green Thumb Farm Stable. I remember when those paint jobs were $29.95, punctuated with a lusty, gravelly, “Riiiiiiiiiiiight!” He brought two good stallions to CA, Bicker and Saros. The latter, Fran’s Valentine’s sire, really stamped his get. They were almost all muddy bays with a pinched face like him. Fran had her some chrome though. Two years later she chased Lady’s Secret around Santa Anita while finishing 2nd in the BC Distaff. She was a nice mare. Good broodmare too.

Gawd, I remember those ads! They were such an iconic slice of life, at least here in California. "I'll paint any car any color for $29.95!"in that great gravelly voice!

His other stallion, Bicker, was Frannie's broodmare sire. She was such a nice filly! 3-time GI winner at three (KY Oaks, Santa Susanna, Hol Oaks), but also had three significant 2nds in GIs (Hol Starlet, Alabama, and BC Distaff). In the Starlet at 2, she was beaten, ironically, by Outstandingly. Also, germane to recent discussions, at age 3 she beat the boys on dirt at 8.5 furlongs in an ungraded stakes called the Yankee Valor. AND.....she was the dam of the wonderful With Anticipation!

I think the Yankee Valor became the Goodwood which became the Awesome Again. There was a history of mares beating males at the old Oak Tree meet. Fifty years ago in 1974, Charlie Whittingham—the mentor of Joe Manzi, Fran Valentine’s trainer—swept the Carlton F. Burke and Oak Tree Invitational with Tallahto who was the country’s best mare that year not named Desert Vixen or Dahlia. Tallahto was also quite a broodmare, her best offspring being the filly Hidden Light but Tallahto produced a number of nice runners.

I had to check cause I think its interesting the way Graded Stakes evolve. It looks like SA ran both these races for a few years, they were ~2 weeks apart with similar conditions. The Yankee Valor(1981) then changed to the Harold C. Ramser Sr. Handicap(1989), which is now the Autumn Miss. It went from a 3/u 8.5f stakes on the dirt to a turf race for 3yof. The Harold Ramser was run as a dirt race in 1989, they didn't run in 1990, then it came back as the 3yof turf version in 1991(Flawlessly won it). That is really strange that they could change the conditions that much and still keep the Grade of the race. But then they started skipping runnings here and there, and the race wasn't Graded again until 2008. The Goodwood was first ran in 1982.

Even though their conditions really only were the same in 83-89, Pettrax and Present Value won both races the same year. While Super Diamond won them in different years.

[sweettalk]

I play mostly foreign races now, HKJC, JRA, and in winter here, Aussie races because I enjoy seeing the greenery of their opposite seasons. Most of the handlers are female which is very different from here. and of course, no outriders. Horses are horses and humans are humans. I have had many female canines who were more powerful than any males in field trials, etc.

I think we make too much of all this. Sodashi, Almond Eye, Liberty Island, Gentildonna, Enable, Ouija Board , Bosra Sham, Dahlia, Zarkava, Makybe Diva, Sunline, Urban Sea, Allez France, Shamida, Gallinaria, Salsabil , Black Caviar, etc. cured me of making too many extreme distinctions whether they raced against the boys or not..... Of course going back to early times, 1800s, I dont think there's ever been one better than Kincsem winning 54 races.

....as did many of the U.S. mares and fillies who beat the boys (and I imagine we'd have a lot more on that list IF more females had run against males in U.S. racing. Unfortunately does not happen often enough ) but I am quite sure we'd have a longer list if they just entered.

yeah this was why i asked in the "runs like a girl" thread if they're really as... inferior? slow? ??? vs boys as the US seems to treat them. some good points but i still wish we saw it more often here.

[Curtis]

Gawd, I remember those ads! They were such an iconic slice of life, at least here in California. "I'll paint any car any color for $29.95!"in that great gravelly voice!

His other stallion, Bicker, was Frannie's broodmare sire. She was such a nice filly! 3-time GI winner at three (KY Oaks, Santa Susanna, Hol Oaks), but also had three significant 2nds in GIs (Hol Starlet, Alabama, and BC Distaff). In the Starlet at 2, she was beaten, ironically, by Outstandingly. Also, germane to recent discussions, at age 3 she beat the boys on dirt at 8.5 furlongs in an ungraded stakes called the Yankee Valor. AND.....she was the dam of the wonderful With Anticipation!

I think the Yankee Valor became the Goodwood which became the Awesome Again. There was a history of mares beating males at the old Oak Tree meet. Fifty years ago in 1974, Charlie Whittingham—the mentor of Joe Manzi, Fran Valentine’s trainer—swept the Carlton F. Burke and Oak Tree Invitational with Tallahto who was the country’s best mare that year not named Desert Vixen or Dahlia. Tallahto was also quite a broodmare, her best offspring being the filly Hidden Light but Tallahto produced a number of nice runners.

I had to check cause I think its interesting the way Graded Stakes evolve. It looks like SA ran both these races for a few years, they were ~2 weeks apart with similar conditions. The Yankee Valor(1981) then changed to the Harold C. Ramser Sr. Handicap(1989), which is now the Autumn Miss. It went from a 3/u 8.5f stakes on the dirt to a turf race for 3yof. The Harold Ramser was run as a dirt race in 1989, they didn't run in 1990, then it came back as the 3yof turf version in 1991(Flawlessly won it). That is really strange that they could change the conditions that much and still keep the Grade of the race. But then they started skipping runnings here and there, and the race wasn't Graded again until 2008. The Goodwood was first ran in 1982.

Even though their conditions really only were the same in 83-89, Pettrax and Present Value won both races the same year. While Super Diamond won them in different years.

Being a visual person, as soon as I read the name Pettrax I immediately saw him in my mind and I haven’t thought of him in years. He was trained and maybe owned as well by Wayne Charlton, I believe. The Goodwood was begun as an exchange with Goodwood Race Course in England. Goodwood ran the Oak Tree Stakes, annually. Again the visual, I picture Harold Ramser’s silks; blue with white hoops. For some reason, the only horse he owned that comes to mind was a fairly unremarkable horse named Doubling. He was a horse that was continually run over his head, so he almost never won. I seem to remember he was off a significant amount of time and came back running in the allowance ranks at dear old Agua Caliente. Seems like at that point he went on a streak and won more times in one year than the entire rest of his career. If only I remembered important stuff.

[Squeaky]

Mike says Fierceness will likely run in Travers-says doesn’t care if he loses as he is winning every other race -that means “will win Classic by 7”. He will train up to the Classic after running in Travers. https://x.com/repolestable/status/18190 ... 65802?s=46

[stark]

Multiple Grade 1-winner and top 3-year-old filly Thorpedo Anna continues to make her preparations at Saratoga as she aims to take on the boys on Aug. 24 in the Grade 1, $1.25 million Travers.

Trained by Kenny McPeek, the daughter of Fast Anna went to the Oklahoma dirt training track at 5:30 a.m. EDT Friday under regular exercise pilot Danny Ramsey and proceeded to break off in a strong gallop near the half-mile marker in a dense fog.

She disappeared through the mist before resurfacing midway through the lane to keep on nicely through the wire in an effort McPeek described as a “happy half-mile.” Because of the heavy fog, an official time was not able to be recorded for the work.

[Gemini]

I play mostly foreign races now, HKJC, JRA, and in winter here, Aussie races because I enjoy seeing the greenery of their opposite seasons. Most of the handlers are female which is very different from here. and of course, no outriders. Horses are horses and humans are humans. I have had many female canines who were more powerful than any males in field trials, etc.

I think we make too much of all this. Sodashi, Almond Eye, Liberty Island, Gentildonna, Enable, Ouija Board , Bosra Sham, Dahlia, Zarkava, Makybe Diva, Sunline, Urban Sea, Allez France, Shamida, Gallinaria, Salsabil , Black Caviar, etc. cured me of making too many extreme distinctions whether they raced against the boys or not..... Of course going back to early times, 1800s, I dont think there's ever been one better than Kincsem winning 54 races.

....as did many of the U.S. mares and fillies who beat the boys (and I imagine we'd have a lot more on that list IF more females had run against males in U.S. racing. Unfortunately does not happen often enough ) but I am quite sure we'd have a longer list if they just entered.

The U.S. is very weird and contradictory. Folks will look at your list and give reasons why those examples aren’t good enough— “turf is easier” or “that was a weak field/crop/year of males” or “sprinting is easier” (though no one asked Ta Wee how she felt about carrying 140 lbs while winning the Fall Highweight). And then you might get some assertions that Ruffian is absolutely the greatest filly of all time.

[Curtis]

I play mostly foreign races now, HKJC, JRA, and in winter here, Aussie races because I enjoy seeing the greenery of their opposite seasons. Most of the handlers are female which is very different from here. and of course, no outriders. Horses are horses and humans are humans. I have had many female canines who were more powerful than any males in field trials, etc.

I think we make too much of all this. Sodashi, Almond Eye, Liberty Island, Gentildonna, Enable, Ouija Board , Bosra Sham, Dahlia, Zarkava, Makybe Diva, Sunline, Urban Sea, Allez France, Shamida, Gallinaria, Salsabil , Black Caviar, etc. cured me of making too many extreme distinctions whether they raced against the boys or not..... Of course going back to early times, 1800s, I dont think there's ever been one better than Kincsem winning 54 races.

....as did many of the U.S. mares and fillies who beat the boys (and I imagine we'd have a lot more on that list IF more females had run against males in U.S. racing. Unfortunately does not happen often enough ) but I am quite sure we'd have a longer list if they just entered.

The U.S. is very weird and contradictory. Folks will look at your list and give reasons why those examples aren’t good enough— “turf is easier” or “that was a weak field/crop/year of males” or “sprinting is easier” (though no one asked Ta Wee how she felt about carrying 140 lbs while winning the Fall Highweight). And then you might get some assertions that Ruffian is absolutely the greatest filly of all time.

It’s not that sprints or turf are easier, it’s that the way those races are run you don’t have the type of stretch runs that lead to a big separation. A mare can run a quarter to 5/16 with a colt. In turf races, that happens late and the fields are often times bunched when that turn of foot is expected. In sprints it’s usually early. The pace in a filly race is usually softer, not so much slower but the open races are “hotter” and more contentious. Also remember that in the fall the weight allowance is reduced and in the Fall Highweight, the “lightweights” often carried 130 or more. The bottom line is, connections want to make money. Open races pay out more, so if running mares in those races made sense, they’d do it.

[Gemini]

I play mostly foreign races now, HKJC, JRA, and in winter here, Aussie races because I enjoy seeing the greenery of their opposite seasons. Most of the handlers are female which is very different from here. and of course, no outriders. Horses are horses and humans are humans. I have had many female canines who were more powerful than any males in field trials, etc.

I think we make too much of all this. Sodashi, Almond Eye, Liberty Island, Gentildonna, Enable, Ouija Board , Bosra Sham, Dahlia, Zarkava, Makybe Diva, Sunline, Urban Sea, Allez France, Shamida, Gallinaria, Salsabil , Black Caviar, etc. cured me of making too many extreme distinctions whether they raced against the boys or not..... Of course going back to early times, 1800s, I dont think there's ever been one better than Kincsem winning 54 races.

....as did many of the U.S. mares and fillies who beat the boys (and I imagine we'd have a lot more on that list IF more females had run against males in U.S. racing. Unfortunately does not happen often enough ) but I am quite sure we'd have a longer list if they just entered.

The U.S. is very weird and contradictory. Folks will look at your list and give reasons why those examples aren’t good enough— “turf is easier” or “that was a weak field/crop/year of males” or “sprinting is easier” (though no one asked Ta Wee how she felt about carrying 140 lbs while winning the Fall Highweight). And then you might get some assertions that Ruffian is absolutely the greatest filly of all time.

It’s not that sprints or turf are easier, it’s that the way those races are run you don’t have the type of stretch runs that lead to a big separation. A mare can run a quarter to 5/16 with a colt. In turf races, that happens late and the fields are often times bunched when that turn of foot is expected. In sprints it’s usually early. The pace in a filly race is usually softer, not so much slower but the open races are “hotter” and more contentious. Also remember that in the fall the weight allowance is reduced and in the Fall Highweight, the “lightweights” often carried 130 or more. The bottom line is, connections want to make money. Open races pay out more, so if running mares in those races made sense, they’d do it.

Speaking specifically about Ta Wee (thanks to my copy of DRF Champions), she won her first “Fall” Highweight Handicap as a 3YO filly in August carrying 130 lbs. The place and show finishers carried 131 and 129 lbs respectively. Her next foray into open company was a win in the Vosburgh while toting 123 lbs—the older males who finished behind her carried 116 lbs and 120 lbs.

I know handicaps are a thing of the past, but it doesn’t seem like she got any breaks for being female. Ta Wee closed out her career by defeating other females—her impost was 142 vs 112 and 113 lbs.

[Curtis]

The U.S. is very weird and contradictory. Folks will look at your list and give reasons why those examples aren’t good enough— “turf is easier” or “that was a weak field/crop/year of males” or “sprinting is easier” (though no one asked Ta Wee how she felt about carrying 140 lbs while winning the Fall Highweight). And then you might get some assertions that Ruffian is absolutely the greatest filly of all time.

It’s not that sprints or turf are easier, it’s that the way those races are run you don’t have the type of stretch runs that lead to a big separation. A mare can run a quarter to 5/16 with a colt. In turf races, that happens late and the fields are often times bunched when that turn of foot is expected. In sprints it’s usually early. The pace in a filly race is usually softer, not so much slower but the open races are “hotter” and more contentious. Also remember that in the fall the weight allowance is reduced and in the Fall Highweight, the “lightweights” often carried 130 or more. The bottom line is, connections want to make money. Open races pay out more, so if running mares in those races made sense, they’d do it.

Speaking specifically about Ta Wee (thanks to my copy of DRF Champions), she won her first “Fall” Highweight Handicap as a 3YO filly in August carrying 130 lbs. The place and show finishers carried 131 and 129 lbs respectively. Her next foray into open company was a win in the Vosburgh while toting 123 lbs—the older males who finished behind her carried 116 lbs and 120 lbs.

I know handicaps are a thing of the past, but it doesn’t seem like she got any breaks for being female. Ta Wee closed out her career by defeating other females—her impost was 142 vs 112 and 113 lbs.

Had those races been in the spring or summer Ta Wee would have gotten a break, in the open races. Not counting Secretariat’s Belmont which is its’ own category, I think the most impressive race I’ve ever seen was Dahlia’s 1973 Washington DC International when she was a 3yo. Unfortunately, the video footage of that race is long gone. When Rachel won the 2009 Woodward she was erroneously credited by a couple of turf writers as being the first 3yo filly to win an open G1 of any kind. One or two doubled down when corrected since, I guess, if the footage was gone, Dahlia’s race didn’t happen. Finally the assertion was amended to the first on dirt, which was true.

[Slewfan2]

Tyler Gafflione to ride Honor Marie in the Travers

Edit:

He wore blinkers in his work today…

[MySaladDays]

yeah this was why i asked in the "runs like a girl" thread if they're really as... inferior? slow? ??? vs boys as the US seems to treat them. some good points but i still wish we saw it more often here.

I really haven't analyzed it from every possible angle. Which is also hard to do since as has been pointed out, different surfaces and also many U.S. horses do tend to retire earlier (dirt is harder on them than turf or tapeta?) so I don't really get to see them out as long as I want tto, in order to make any conclusions.

I just always say that when a mare or filly are good, they are "very, very, good." That is really all I have noticed with the ones that really stand out in my mind.

But I guess you can say that about some male horses, too.

[MySaladDays]

Back to the Travers, if you go thru the ones who have won, since around 2011 (the last time Pletcher won it), horses who win the Travers have a rather clear trajectory in terms of their racing history.

Except for the Cali horses that Baffert brings, the winners of this usually raced last at SAR or BEL and ran 1st or 2nd, but also have a pretty consistent race record of 1st's and 2nd's in general, and are horses who can take tight turns and are speedy.

Right now, for me, and I don't know who else is going to be in the field, I am looking at Dornoch, Sierra Leone, Parenting, and Corporate Power. On the bead with Unmatched Wisdom, who I also am not sure is good enough but who seems to be showing real promise.

And probably fading Fierceness (inconsistent), Muth (too much time off), Honor Marie (just not in the same league as these others despite his wonderful pedigree potenential, unless he suddenly matures for this) and Batten Down (who I just don't think is good enough despite his pedigree says he is, seems like another Tawny Port, Owendale, etc.) for the actual WIN spot.

I also had a weird dream about the race, which I usually go with, as woo-woo as that sounds.

But probably won't be a race I will wager, the odds will not be good enough for me to engage. I'm saving my $$ for the Cox Plate and the Melbourne Cup, as those are races that I'm usually good at and have good odds.

[stark]

Field for Saturday’s G1 Forego

1-Gun Pilot
2-Twisted Ride
3-Full Screen
4-Baby Yoda
5-Run Classic
6-Mullikin
7-Angkor
8-Cagliostro

[stark]

Field for Saturday’s G1 Ballerina Handicap

1-Positano Sunset
2-Chi Town Lady
3-Vahva
4-Society
5-Scylla
6-Shidabhuti
7-Accede
8-Munny’s Gold

[stark]

Field for Saturday’s G1 H. Allen Jerkens

1-World Record
2-Speak Easy
3-Domestic Product
4-Vettriano
5-Prince of Monaco
6-Timberlake
7-Otto the Conqueror
8-Book ‘em Danno
9-Reynolds Channel
10-Jefferson Street
11-Little Ni