2024 Fees

[brunanas]

Early Voting Removed From 2024 Covering Duties at Coolmore
https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/e ... -coolmore/

Early Voting, who was not on the roster of stud fees when Coolmore America announced their 2024 lineup Tuesday, has been “removed from covering duties at Ashford Stud for the 2024 breeding season due to an inability to breed, according to veterinary experts,” Coolmore said Wednesday.

The farm said that the stallion, a son of Gun Runner, was subject to an ongoing insurance claim.

[brunanas]

Stallion: 2024 Fee (2023 Fee)

Airdrie:
Beau Liam: $6,000 (=)
Cairo Prince: $15,000 (=)
Collected: $10,000 (=)
Complexity: $12,500 (=)
Divisidero: $5,000 (=)
Girvin: $30,000 ($20,000)
Happy Saver: $10,000 ($12,500)
Highly Motivated: $7,500 (=)
Preservationist: $5,000 ($10,000)
Summer Front: $5,000 ($7,500)
Upstart: $30,000 (=)

[Mylute]

Stallion: 2024 Fee (2023 Fee)

Airdrie:
Beau Liam: $6,000 (=)
Cairo Prince: $15,000 (=)
Collected: $10,000 (=)
Complexity: $12,500 (=)
Divisidero: $5,000 (=)
Girvin: $30,000 ($20,000)
Happy Saver: $10,000 ($12,500)
Highly Motivated: $7,500 (=)
Preservationist: $5,000 ($10,000)
Summer Front: $5,000 ($7,500)
Upstart: $30,000 (=)

14 y/o Creative Cause missing.

[Flanders]

I get he has a good female family but 150+ mares is shocking to me. He's Cloud Computing 2.0.

Could he have developed testicular/prostate issues? Like cysts or cancer that was removed? So he would technically be physically healthy right now but they previously discovered he couldn't complete breedings because his parts weren't salvageable.

It is insane and shocking but its also normal at a lot of farms. 150+ is what first year stallions get nowadays. I mean Beau Liam got 162 mares last year in his first year at stud and I fully expect Nashville to be there this year. It doesn't matter what they did on the track or didn't do on the track. Rock Your World who only won a Ky Derby prep got 200+ mares his first year. Known Agenda who won a Ky Derby prep got 150+ mares.

I imagine they aren't saying much cause Brunanas posted he does have a pending insurance claim. Once that pays out and the insurance company takes ownership, maybe they'll say more? The insurance company will do everything and anything to get him back to being a stallion if it is possible. And if they can, then they will sell him to whoever pays the most. If they can't, they'll send him somewhere and still test him, try stuff on him every year to get him to successfully cover, like they did with Cigar.

[Palace Malice]

I get he has a good female family but 150+ mares is shocking to me. He's Cloud Computing 2.0.

Could he have developed testicular/prostate issues? Like cysts or cancer that was removed? So he would technically be physically healthy right now but they previously discovered he couldn't complete breedings because his parts weren't salvageable.

It is insane and shocking but its also normal at a lot of farms. 150+ is what first year stallions get nowadays. I mean Beau Liam got 162 mares last year in his first year at stud and I fully expect Nashville to be there this year. It doesn't matter what they did on the track or didn't do on the track. Rock Your World who only won a Ky Derby prep got 200+ mares his first year. Known Agenda who won a Ky Derby prep got 150+ mares.

I imagine they aren't saying much cause Brunanas posted he does have a pending insurance claim. Once that pays out and the insurance company takes ownership, maybe they'll say more? The insurance company will do everything and anything to get him back to being a stallion if it is possible. And if they can, then they will sell him to whoever pays the most. If they can't, they'll send him somewhere and still test him, try stuff on him every year to get him to successfully cover, like they did with Cigar.

I'm curious, did Cigar manage to have a few offsprings or was he 100% infertile?

[Flanders]

I get he has a good female family but 150+ mares is shocking to me. He's Cloud Computing 2.0.

Could he have developed testicular/prostate issues? Like cysts or cancer that was removed? So he would technically be physically healthy right now but they previously discovered he couldn't complete breedings because his parts weren't salvageable.

It is insane and shocking but its also normal at a lot of farms. 150+ is what first year stallions get nowadays. I mean Beau Liam got 162 mares last year in his first year at stud and I fully expect Nashville to be there this year. It doesn't matter what they did on the track or didn't do on the track. Rock Your World who only won a Ky Derby prep got 200+ mares his first year. Known Agenda who won a Ky Derby prep got 150+ mares.

I imagine they aren't saying much cause Brunanas posted he does have a pending insurance claim. Once that pays out and the insurance company takes ownership, maybe they'll say more? The insurance company will do everything and anything to get him back to being a stallion if it is possible. And if they can, then they will sell him to whoever pays the most. If they can't, they'll send him somewhere and still test him, try stuff on him every year to get him to successfully cover, like they did with Cigar.

I'm curious, did Cigar manage to have a few offsprings or was he 100% infertile?

100% infertile, he had sperm but they were all malformed if I remember correctly. But that didn't stop them from trying every year for a long time to see if his problems cleared up. Coolmore bought Mariah's Storm, who was carrying Giant's Causeway, to be bred to Cigar his first year. If Cigar had proved fertile, Freud probably wouldn't exist (I say probably cause Coolmore has definitely changed their minds after purchasing mares).

[Northport]

what i heard was it started happening after 150 or so mares. i think it's kinda hard for him to catch an STD with how strict Coolmore is with mare vetting and also pre and post hygiene. the whole situation is odd. he will mount just fine, but won't finish. anyways, i kinda doubt we will hear from Coolmore anytime soon.

Then he got burnt out. Cut the number back, spread the mares out more.... Yeah I was just throwing things out there, I didn't think it likely a stallion at a major stud farm would get a STD.

When Dixie Union went to stud he had issues. They had to move him to Lane's End mid-breeding season and spread the mares out more and accommodate how he was able to cover mares.

I'm getting notes of Starspangledbanner. He initially retired to Coolmore Ireland in 2011, had poor fertility, came back into training at Ballydoyle in 2012, wasn't the horse he used to be, so was retired again. Rather than going back to being a duel hemisphere stallion between the Coolmore bases, he was cast off to Rosemont Stud in Australia for the 2013 SH season.

He was their pride and joy there, and they worked with vets to create a schedule/regime to optimize his fertility. He stood there 2013-2015 but once it was clear he was getting consistently great results as a stallion AND his fertility had improved, Coolmore took him back for 2016. He ended up going back to Rosemont 2019-2021, but has been full time in Coolmore Ireland ever since. As recently as March of this year, the owner of Rosemont has been publicly asking for the Coolmore to consider sending the horse back.

Here are some blurbs from a 2019 article on him:

Starspangledbanner began his stud career with Coolmore in Ireland in 2011 before shuttling to Coolmore's Hunter Valley Australia base for the 2011/2012 season. Despite large numbers in both hemispheres those two crops netted only 58 live foals and the stallion was labelled "sub-fertile" and returned to training. He was written off as a stallion until 51 of those first season foals hit the race track and – incredibly – nine of them became stakeswinners.
...
"We changed his environment, lightened his work load and focused heavily on keeping him happy. It helped turn him around and we increased his fertility to over 60% which was respectable. Thankfully his improvement continued after he returned to Coolmore and his most recent crop (2017) returned a fertility rate of 87%. That's better than "normal"! We've learned that as long as he isn't over-worked, there's nothing wrong with his fertility"

https://www.breednet.com.au/news/7030/s ... o-rosemont

Coolmore is a business, I get it. But it's a monolith. If a stallion can't keep up with their way, it's the highway. Unless a smaller operation can put in the time and effort to resolve the issue, in which case they will take the horse back.

[Palace Malice]

It is insane and shocking but its also normal at a lot of farms. 150+ is what first year stallions get nowadays. I mean Beau Liam got 162 mares last year in his first year at stud and I fully expect Nashville to be there this year. It doesn't matter what they did on the track or didn't do on the track. Rock Your World who only won a Ky Derby prep got 200+ mares his first year. Known Agenda who won a Ky Derby prep got 150+ mares.

I imagine they aren't saying much cause Brunanas posted he does have a pending insurance claim. Once that pays out and the insurance company takes ownership, maybe they'll say more? The insurance company will do everything and anything to get him back to being a stallion if it is possible. And if they can, then they will sell him to whoever pays the most. If they can't, they'll send him somewhere and still test him, try stuff on him every year to get him to successfully cover, like they did with Cigar.

I'm curious, did Cigar manage to have a few offsprings or was he 100% infertile?

100% infertile, he had sperm but they were all malformed if I remember correctly. But that didn't stop them from trying every year for a long time to see if his problems cleared up. Coolmore bought Mariah's Storm, who was carrying Giant's Causeway, to be bred to Cigar his first year. If Cigar had proved fertile, Freud probably wouldn't exist (I say probably cause Coolmore has definitely changed their minds after purchasing mares).

Interesting, thanks!

Maybe Cigar would have been a super sire though

[Northport]

I'm curious, did Cigar manage to have a few offsprings or was he 100% infertile?

100% infertile, he had sperm but they were all malformed if I remember correctly. But that didn't stop them from trying every year for a long time to see if his problems cleared up. Coolmore bought Mariah's Storm, who was carrying Giant's Causeway, to be bred to Cigar his first year. If Cigar had proved fertile, Freud probably wouldn't exist (I say probably cause Coolmore has definitely changed their minds after purchasing mares).

Interesting, thanks!

Maybe Cigar would have been a super sire though

Flanders remembers correctly! I honestly hadn't ever thought specifically about how Cigar was infertile but am now curious and could find a couple contemporary articles. This one is half decent and isn't behind a pay wall:

The latest person who will attempt to tackle the problem, the root of which is thought to be a deficiency in Cigar's sperm which makes them misshapen and immobile, is Phil McCarthy, a vet who specialises in stallion reproduction. He believes that Cigar's difficulties may result from the stress of constant competition over the last four years, a period which included a trip to the Middle East to win the inaugural Dubai World Cup, and during which he rarely went for more than a month without a race.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cig ... 50828.html

[Flanders]

100% infertile, he had sperm but they were all malformed if I remember correctly. But that didn't stop them from trying every year for a long time to see if his problems cleared up. Coolmore bought Mariah's Storm, who was carrying Giant's Causeway, to be bred to Cigar his first year. If Cigar had proved fertile, Freud probably wouldn't exist (I say probably cause Coolmore has definitely changed their minds after purchasing mares).

Interesting, thanks!

Maybe Cigar would have been a super sire though

Flanders remembers correctly! I honestly hadn't ever thought specifically about how Cigar was infertile but am now curious and could find a couple contemporary articles. This one is half decent and isn't behind a pay wall:

The latest person who will attempt to tackle the problem, the root of which is thought to be a deficiency in Cigar's sperm which makes them misshapen and immobile, is Phil McCarthy, a vet who specialises in stallion reproduction. He believes that Cigar's difficulties may result from the stress of constant competition over the last four years, a period which included a trip to the Middle East to win the inaugural Dubai World Cup, and during which he rarely went for more than a month without a race.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cig ... 50828.html

I think the reason was genetic. The Northern Dancer line has had quite a lot of horses that were infertile or subfertile over the years, and not just from one of his sons. These are the ones I could come up with fast.

The Minstrel line: Cigar
Danzig line : George Washington, Lure, Starspangledbanner, Boundary, The Last Lion, Barney Roy (there are definitely more for this one)
Northern Dancer son's: El Gran Senor and Snaafi Dancer ($10.2m yearling that never raced and was only able to sire 4 foals)
Storm Bird line: Summer Squall
Dixieland Band line: Dixie Union (had troubles as I noted above) and his son High Cotton was pensioned young due to fertility

[starrydreamer]

Danzig line : George Washington, Lure, Starspangledbanner, Boundary, The Last Lion, Barney Roy (there are definitely more for this one)

War Front isn't subfertile or infertile, but a not insignificant number of mares bred to him end up not in foal. I think without Claiborne's careful management, it would be worse.

[sweettalk]

Danzig line : George Washington, Lure, Starspangledbanner, Boundary, The Last Lion, Barney Roy (there are definitely more for this one)

War Front isn't subfertile or infertile, but a not insignificant number of mares bred to him end up not in foal. I think without Claiborne's careful management, it would be worse.

if he isn't subfertile, why is his mares-in-foal rate low? (sorry if this is a silly question)

[Flanders]

Danzig line : George Washington, Lure, Starspangledbanner, Boundary, The Last Lion, Barney Roy (there are definitely more for this one)

War Front isn't subfertile or infertile, but a not insignificant number of mares bred to him end up not in foal. I think without Claiborne's careful management, it would be worse.

if he isn't subfertile, why is his mares-in-foal rate low? (sorry if this is a silly question)

Besides the past 2 years(weanlings and yearlings), his numbers look fine. Though that might be because of Claiborne's management of him. His average foals to mares bred average has been 75%, 1101 foals from 1467 mares bred. Thoroughbred average is 65-75%. Subfertile is 60%. He has been below that 60% for his yearling and weanling crops but he is getting older.

[sweettalk]

Danzig line : George Washington, Lure, Starspangledbanner, Boundary, The Last Lion, Barney Roy (there are definitely more for this one)

War Front isn't subfertile or infertile, but a not insignificant number of mares bred to him end up not in foal. I think without Claiborne's careful management, it would be worse.

if he isn't subfertile, why is his mares-in-foal rate low? (sorry if this is a silly question)

Besides the past 2 years(weanlings and yearlings), his numbers look fine. Though that might be because of Claiborne's management of him. His average foals to mares bred average has been 75%, 1101 foals from 1467 mares bred. Thoroughbred average is 65-75%. Subfertile is 60%. He has been below that 60% for his yearling and weanling crops but he is getting older.

ah fair enough. not everyone can be mr. prospector, lol.

[Mylute]

I wonder if they're just going to stand Creative Cause privately or pension him.

[starrydreamer]

Danzig line : George Washington, Lure, Starspangledbanner, Boundary, The Last Lion, Barney Roy (there are definitely more for this one)

War Front isn't subfertile or infertile, but a not insignificant number of mares bred to him end up not in foal. I think without Claiborne's careful management, it would be worse.

if he isn't subfertile, why is his mares-in-foal rate low? (sorry if this is a silly question)

Besides the past 2 years(weanlings and yearlings), his numbers look fine. Though that might be because of Claiborne's management of him. His average foals to mares bred average has been 75%, 1101 foals from 1467 mares bred. Thoroughbred average is 65-75%. Subfertile is 60%. He has been below that 60% for his yearling and weanling crops but he is getting older.

Exactly what Flanders said. He wasn't subfertile until last year and this year, but also he is 21 yrs old.

[Miss Woodford]

I wonder if they're just going to stand Creative Cause privately or pension him.

I could see him going to a regional farm. He does sire durable money-earning runners with several having 50+ starts under their belt so a breed-to-race program could definitely use him.

[Flanders]

I wonder if they're just going to stand Creative Cause privately or pension him.

Maybe he moves to that regional farm that you had posted about at some point that said they owned a part of him? I don't remember what the farm name was... I think it was in Ohio?

[flytpthestars]

Creative Cause is still at Airdrie. I saw him today and the guy at the barn said he is leaving but didnt say where

[brunanas]

dw Flanders, i'm working on the 2024 fees for Lane's End