Help settle a debate

[Slewfan2]

My guess is he ends up in Saudi Arabia when his racing career is over. They love the A.P. Indy lines.

Thing is, he does have some early speed, he showed that in the JCGC and Suburban last year when he won. Just the jockey has to ask him for it right out of the gate or he breaks slow and languishes at the back. He runs worse when he is back far. I do not know why they haven't tried putting him close to the pace again but the last time they did was the JCGC.

Those two races appear to be complete outliers, though - and I’m sure Steve is instructing the jocks to ask Max right away, but he has to want to give it; you can’t force him or any horse to give what he doesn’t want to or doesn’t have. He had a fine 3 year old season running from well back, so I don’t know what’s happened except he clearly has no interest in running. If you ever saw his debut, you could tell that he was ...let’s say quirky. The primary owner would probably want to keep running, but I feel like this time they’d have to completely start over.

[Slewfan2]

I don't think every intact colt that's won a GS should retire to stud, but Max Player has quite a bit more going for him other than that.

Additionally, Honor Code's recent lack of popularity doesn't mean a lot, because we have quite a few studs with non-commercial pedigrees get retired to Kentucky. See: Army Mule.

However, I don't typically like when I see that much inbreeding that close.

He would be up against it, what with all the flash in the pan Into Mischief sons out there, but he would at least be a different flavor.

True, but Army Mule was fast...Honor Code sires mostly plodders (and surprisingly nice turf horses), which I think is at least partly attributed to being bred to stout mares. Like with Secretariat, I think he needs to be bred to speedier mares. One reason I was so crushed by Essential Wager’s retirement is that he was a brilliant horse, and game - actually, now that I think about it, I don’t know why they gelded him when he could have been a sire (unless the fractured sesamoid would have prevented him from mounting mares ....though he’s going to be a riding horse, so...). In his case, I think his speed and class could have overcome his cold sire, much like I think HAP may (I have a lot of confidence in him). Max doesn’t offer any real speed, so I do think he’ll end up overseas. Unfortunately, Saudi Arabia makes sense

[Falinadin]

There's far worse horses at stud than him. Regional markets are full of horses that are just G3/minor stakes winners, some even unraced but with a nice pedigree. Max Player is decent looking, has raced from 2-5 and stayed somewhat sound. I also like that he's out of a Not for Love mare. I think he should be given opportunity to stand at stud. Maybe not in central Kentucky, but in a regional market at least.
As far as not being fast goes, he's no Dash for Cash but he won the G1 JCGC. Considering that something like 0.2% of thoroughbreds will ever win a grade 1 race... I'd say he's faster than most. And before that gets called a fluke or contrasted with "yeah but he's not fast now", most racehorses are slower when they retire than when they're at their peak. Tapit retired after 2 ninth place finishes after his sole G1 win. War Front's last race was a 7th place finish (he isn't a G1 winner actually), Uncle Mo's last race was a 12th in the BC after a 3 year old season that only had a G2 win (he was a G1 winner at 2).
Long story short, just because he won the JCGC at 3 and isn't doing well this year doesn't somehow completely invalidate him as a stallion?

I think that there are very valid arguments to be had about being more selective about the stallions standing stud. But I don't think a grade 1 winner with a 3-4 year career is the one to argue here. Go after the horses who are barely stakes winners.
Heck, in my neck of the woods (California) we have stellar examples like Heaven's Glory. Completely unraced. Despite the fact that he's by Tapit and out of Peeping Fawn, he RNA'd for $90k as a yearling because of how much of a mess he was. Other completely unraced stallions include Box Score (full to Temple City), Treasure Ride (full to Twirling Candy) and Gem Heist (out of Careless Jewel).
Or how about Phantom Wildcat, with a 10-1-0-2 record and literally never setting foot in a black type race. None of his siblings are stakes winners. He has 47 foals on the ground.
Or Unionize. 20-5-6-2 and also never ran in a single stakes or black type race. Has 39 foals on the ground.

YOU might not breed to Max Player, but he's a better prospect than a lot of these regional horses

[Slewfan2]

There's far worse horses at stud than him. Regional markets are full of horses that are just G3/minor stakes winners, some even unraced but with a nice pedigree. Max Player is decent looking, has raced from 2-5 and stayed somewhat sound. I also like that he's out of a Not for Love mare. I think he should be given opportunity to stand at stud. Maybe not in central Kentucky, but in a regional market at least.
As far as not being fast goes, he's no Dash for Cash but he won the G1 JCGC. Considering that something like 0.2% of thoroughbreds will ever win a grade 1 race... I'd say he's faster than most. And before that gets called a fluke or contrasted with "yeah but he's not fast now", most racehorses are slower when they retire than when they're at their peak. Tapit retired after 2 ninth place finishes after his sole G1 win. War Front's last race was a 7th place finish (he isn't a G1 winner actually), Uncle Mo's last race was a 12th in the BC after a 3 year old season that only had a G2 win (he was a G1 winner at 2).
Long story short, just because he won the JCGC at 3 and isn't doing well this year doesn't somehow completely invalidate him as a stallion?

I think that there are very valid arguments to be had about being more selective about the stallions standing stud. But I don't think a grade 1 winner with a 3-4 year career is the one to argue here. Go after the horses who are barely stakes winners.
Heck, in my neck of the woods (California) we have stellar examples like Heaven's Glory. Completely unraced. Despite the fact that he's by Tapit and out of Peeping Fawn, he RNA'd for $90k as a yearling because of how much of a mess he was. Other completely unraced stallions include Box Score (full to Temple City), Treasure Ride (full to Twirling Candy) and Gem Heist (out of Careless Jewel).
Or how about Phantom Wildcat, with a 10-1-0-2 record and literally never setting foot in a black type race. None of his siblings are stakes winners. He has 47 foals on the ground.
Or Unionize. 20-5-6-2 and also never ran in a single stakes or black type race. Has 39 foals on the ground.

YOU might not breed to Max Player, but he's a better prospect than a lot of these regional horses

Excellent points !

[KatieK101]

Like many others have stated, I believe gelding him is a reach. Max Player has a better resume for stud than say Faversham, the two-time winning full brother to California Chrome, who aside from that full brother, doesn't have a dazzling female family. And yet he stands in California. Others have already mentioned that War Front and Malibu Moon were successful at stud despite their less than stellar race records; fun fact, Malibu Moon doesn't even appear in his half-sisters or brothers' pedigree pages because his one victory at Hollywood Park doesn't warrant it.

But after taking a look at a pedigree page (Frank's Folly in 2018), I actually think Max Player has a nice female family. He's a half-brother to GSW Seahenge and GSP Urban Bourban, and Frank's Folly herself is a black-type placed winner (and it's also worth noting at she ended up selling for $460k as a broodmare prospect. Again, this is before Max Player even made his debut in 2019). His dam, Fools in Love, is a half-sister to MGSW International Star and a full-sister to SW D C Dancer.

It's not as fancy a female family as the offspring of Leslie's Lady, but I was under the impression that it was worse than what it is. Max Player would fit nicely in a regional market. Then again, we're only halfway through 2022 and it's very possible that Max Player has a few more good runs in him and could land somewhere in Kentucky. You simply never know.

[KatieK101]

If you want further proof that race records and fancy female families don't always equate to a successful stallion... a little horse named Smokem, standing at Love Acres Ranch in California, is currently number two on the first-crop sire's list, according to BloodHorse. He's behind Bolt d'Oro, who Spendthrift backed tremendously and claimed is the second coming of Uncle Mo, but he's still ahead of JUSTIFY, Good Magic, Mendelssohn, Always Dreaming, and West Coast, to name a handful.

Smokem won one race and placed second in four minor stakes in California. He doesn't have a better female family than Max Player. I assume the only reason he went to stud is because he looked fast, and he's from the second crop of Union Rags, and breeders are always eager to pull from a stallion's early crops (see also: Catalina Cruiser and Free Drop Billy).

I don't know how long Smokem will hold onto that spot, but I will always giggle at seeing a Union Rags non-stakes winner rank higher than a Scat Daddy triple crown winner In many ways, the breeding shed is a great equalizer. If Max Player isn't at least given a chance at stud somewhere, I'll be surprised.

[Honor Code]

But after taking a look at a pedigree page (Frank's Folly in 2018), I actually think Max Player has a nice female family. He's a half-brother to GSW Seahenge and GSP Urban Bourban, and Frank's Folly herself is a black-type placed winner (and it's also worth noting at she ended up selling for $460k as a broodmare prospect. Again, this is before Max Player even made his debut in 2019). His dam, Fools in Love, is a half-sister to MGSW International Star and a full-sister to SW D C Dancer.

Whoa. I wasn't aware he had such a nice female family. That and his race record certainly seems stronger than quite a few KY studs. I went and found his old sales page when he RNA'ed in 2018. Yeah, he should probably keep his family jewels

http://apps.keeneland.com/sales/Sep18/pdfs/929.pdf

[Slewfan2]

I’m thinking far less about his female family than his sire, in combination with his lack of speed. I guess we’ll find out soon enough

[KatieK101]

I’m thinking far less about his female family than his sire, in combination with his lack of speed. I guess we’ll find out soon enough

If breeders are willing to take a chance on Honor AP then there are absolutely breeders who would be willing to take a chance on Max Player. I understand that one of them had more "brilliant" races than the other but there's something to be said for durability and winning GSWs as a 3YO as well as an older horse. He may not have the flash-in-a-pan greatness that Kentucky breeders are drawn to but a regional market will be very appreciative of him, the same way that they are towards Hoppertunity and Street Boss, for example.

As for female families, I'm a pedigree geek so that's what I like to research. Taking a look at Honor AP's, he certainly has an edge with Hollywood Story's G1Ws but her produce record is very similar to Fools in Love. I'd call them about even.

[Slewfan2]

I’m thinking far less about his female family than his sire, in combination with his lack of speed. I guess we’ll find out soon enough

If breeders are willing to take a chance on Honor AP then there are absolutely breeders who would be willing to take a chance on Max Player. I understand that one of them had more "brilliant" races than the other but there's something to be said for durability and winning GSWs as a 3YO as well as an older horse. He may not have the flash-in-a-pan greatness that Kentucky breeders are drawn to but a regional market will be very appreciative of him, the same way that they are towards Hoppertunity and Street Boss, for example.

As for female families, I'm a pedigree geek so that's what I like to research. Taking a look at Honor AP's, he certainly has an edge with Hollywood Story's G1Ws but her produce record is very similar to Fools in Love. I'd call them about even.

Oh, I only said that because I was more concerned about the HC half of his pedigree - damside is solid.

I absolutely adore HAP, and I’m confident he’ll be a successful sire even with the inconsistencies of his sire. I don’t think we came close to seeing the best of him. **Please - if anyone wants to bemoan him getting a chance at stud, do not do that here.

That’s fair…Max is a very sound horse. These races are too bad to be true - something is up mentally, I think; perhaps back to the drawing board.

[Slewfan2]

Please retire Max now. I love this horse, and at least he tried today, but he was actually a far better 3 year old than an older horse, and he’s not even graded stakes caliber at this point.

[BaroqueAgain1]

Max's jockey tried to keep him closer today in the Suburban, but he kind of spit the bit coming around the last turn. Then he started running again when he was at the back...but still only beat one horse in the 5-horse field. He isn't doing well, whichever strategy the rider tries. Retirement, or at least a vacation on the farm to refresh his mind, seems like a good idea.

[Slewfan2]

Max's jockey tried to keep him closer today in the Suburban, but he kind of spit the bit coming around the last turn. Then he started running again when he was at the back...but still only beat one horse in the 5-horse field. He isn't doing well, whichever strategy the rider tries. Retirement, or at least a vacation on the farm to refresh his mind, seems like a good idea.

Yes, he tried for a bit, but there’s nothing there; I think he’s been sending a message since the BC. The reason I don’t think a vacation would do much is because he had a few months off after the Classic, and he’s worse. It’s funny, because Max was so eager in the morning that Steve ran him earlier than he intended…

The majority owner, George Hall, isn’t into breeding. If he doesn’t think he can get a decent price for him - I guess enough to satisfy investors, I suppose a long vacation might be worth a try. I just want what’s best for Max.