Help settle a debate

[Slewfan2]

After the Brooklyn, which turned out as I expected, I vented on a board that Max Player should be retired, maybe even gelded. I wasn’t expecting my usual fellow Honor Code fans to reply as they’d already made their own comments, but one of them got passive aggressive/nasty (as usual) and said the idea of gelding Max is ridiculous.

Her argument :

That's far too reaching to say no one is going to want to stand this horse at stud. It's your opinion, not shared by others of that I am certain. If Keen Ice can get Calumet to stand him I don't think it's reaching to say that they or others wouldn't be interested. He fits right into their stallion parameters, frankly. ..... As far as calling for him to be gelded? a multiple graded stakes winner, amongst which is the grade 1 JCGC, sound and raced at 2,3,4, and now 5, that in my opinion is ridiculous,...

This was my response :

Keen Ice not only won the Travers and finished 2 in the Haskell as a 3 year old, but he finished 3rd in the Classic the next year, and then won the Suburban and finished 2nd in the Whitney and JCGC as a 5 year old. There is no comparison to Max, who wasn’t as good a 3 year old and has completely collapsed in his last 3 races; he’s been awful, and that’s putting it mildly. Keen Ice is by Curlin, Max is by Honor Code, a sire so ice cold he didn’t get 30 mares bred in 2021, and who’s having a very mediocre year in 2022. This idea that his offspring improve as they mature ? So far, for the most part, even that hasn’t proven to be true.

Calumet has supported HC more than anyone, and they have been rewarded by a group of terrible horses; I’d be shocked if they bought any more or HC or bred to him, nevermind stand Max.

No one is going to care that he’s running as a 5 year old when they are by far the worse races of his career - excepting the Classic, late in his 4 year old season. It’s clear that Happy Saver is much better, and so was Mystic Guide; the Suburban will be viewed as a fluke, and probably the Gold Cup, too, as he beat a weak field with slow figures.

I love Max, he was a fun horse to follow for most of his career, but he’s toast. My idea about gelding him was that maybe he could be retrained for a new career. I don’t know enough about the industry to be certain, but I can’t imagine that anyone other than small time farms in minor racing states would be interested in standing him, and even then, why? He has zero speed. I know that worse horses, unraced even, have gone to stud, but most of those at least had some speed and pedigree (HC is such a disappointment; the market was right about him).

So....am I way off base here ?

[brunanas]

i don't like to pick sides but to be honest i do think saying he should be gelded is a reach. sure he hasn't had a good year, but still he had some nice runs such as the Whitney and the JC Gold Cup as well as finishing a nice third in the Travers to Tiz the Law who was at his absolute peak in the race. i think he should be given a chance, even if not in the US, who knows what he might throw? if even horses that basically strictly ran in claimers are given a shot (even if it's really minor), why shouldn't he?

[Slewfan2]

i don't like to pick sides but to be honest i do think saying he should be gelded is a reach. sure he hasn't had a good year, but still he had some nice runs such as the Whitney and the JC Gold Cup as well as finishing a nice third in the Travers to Tiz the Law who was at his absolute peak in the race. i think he should be given a chance, even if not in the US, who knows what he might throw? if even horses that basically strictly ran in claimers are given a shot (even if it's really minor), why shouldn't he?

He never ran in the Whitney....

I’m not going back to his 3 year old year, which was pretty solid. But his performances starting with the Classic have been incredibly awful...I actually hadn’t thought of him being sold overseas, which I don’t want; I can see that happening.

[MissNMecke]

While I agree that it seems that Max's best racing days are behind him, I think saying that Max should be gelded is going a bit far.
I think he's earned a chance to be a stallion. (After all, with almost all of the top colts being retired regularly at the end of their 3 year old campaigns, who's to say that they wouldn't tail off themselves?)
Max was sound enough to run in all three Triple Crown races and went on to win graded stakes at 4.
Everyone keeps complaining that stakes colts retire too soon, why would owners or trainers risk another campaign if not only a possible breakdown but 'He ran a horrible couple of races and he's not by Tapit, War Front, or Into Mischief: Should have retired him as soon as he won a stakes, but now? Time to snip him'. was on the table?

[Slewfan2]

While I agree that it seems that Max's best racing days are behind him, I think saying that Max should be gelded is going a bit far.
I think he's earned a chance to be a stallion. (After all, with almost all of the top colts being retired regularly at the end of their 3 year old campaigns, who's to say that they wouldn't tail off themselves?)
Max was sound enough to run in all three Triple Crown races and went on to win graded stakes at 4.
Everyone keeps complaining that stakes colts retire too soon, why would owners or trainers risk another campaign if not only a possible breakdown but 'He ran a horrible couple of races and he's not by Tapit, War Front, or Into Mischief: Should have retired him as soon as he won a stakes, but now? Time to snip him'. was on the table?

That’s fair, but I don’t see any farm in a major racing state being interested. This isn’t about his not being by Tapit or some other top sire - you’re underestimating how ice cold Honor Code is, how the market and breeders are out on him. Even if he stood for $500, I wouldn’t breed to him.

[MissNMecke]

While I agree that it seems that Max's best racing days are behind him, I think saying that Max should be gelded is going a bit far.
I think he's earned a chance to be a stallion. (After all, with almost all of the top colts being retired regularly at the end of their 3 year old campaigns, who's to say that they wouldn't tail off themselves?)
Max was sound enough to run in all three Triple Crown races and went on to win graded stakes at 4.
Everyone keeps complaining that stakes colts retire too soon, why would owners or trainers risk another campaign if not only a possible breakdown but 'He ran a horrible couple of races and he's not by Tapit, War Front, or Into Mischief: Should have retired him as soon as he won a stakes, but now? Time to snip him'. was on the table?

That’s fair, but I don’t see any farm in a major racing state being interested. This isn’t about his not being by Tapit or some other top sire - you’re underestimating how ice cold Honor Code is, how the market and breeders are out on him. Even if he stood for $500, I wouldn’t breed to him.

I do see your point as well. But regional markets exist. AND, hypothetically, let's assume that Hot Rod Charlie comes back from Dubai and doesn't return to form ( a lot of horses never do.) So, say he runs three or four abysmal races in a row. Now, Oxbow has not been a popular sire for several years. Would that mean that Hot Rod Charlie shouldn't be given a chance? I would rather see a horse that showed some brilliant moments that maybe raced past their 'best by date' than these three-hit wonders get a shot as a stallion. If they don't produce anything in a crop or two, THEN geld them, and send them on to a new career.

[Slewfan2]

While I agree that it seems that Max's best racing days are behind him, I think saying that Max should be gelded is going a bit far.
I think he's earned a chance to be a stallion. (After all, with almost all of the top colts being retired regularly at the end of their 3 year old campaigns, who's to say that they wouldn't tail off themselves?)
Max was sound enough to run in all three Triple Crown races and went on to win graded stakes at 4.
Everyone keeps complaining that stakes colts retire too soon, why would owners or trainers risk another campaign if not only a possible breakdown but 'He ran a horrible couple of races and he's not by Tapit, War Front, or Into Mischief: Should have retired him as soon as he won a stakes, but now? Time to snip him'. was on the table?

That’s fair, but I don’t see any farm in a major racing state being interested. This isn’t about his not being by Tapit or some other top sire - you’re underestimating how ice cold Honor Code is, how the market and breeders are out on him. Even if he stood for $500, I wouldn’t breed to him.

I do see your point as well. But regional markets exist. AND, hypothetically, let's assume that Hot Rod Charlie comes back from Dubai and doesn't return to form ( a lot of horses never do.) So, say he runs three or four abysmal races in a row. Now, Oxbow has not been a popular sire for several years. Would that mean that Hot Rod Charlie shouldn't be given a chance? I would rather see a horse that showed some brilliant moments that maybe raced past their 'best by date' than these three-hit wonders get a shot as a stallion. If they don't produce anything in a crop or two, THEN geld them, and send them on to a new career.

Very fair, though Hot Rod Charlie is a much better horse than Max, with a lot more speed. If that were to happen to HRC, I could chalk it up to his just going way off form; with Max, it would be more along the lines of his just not ever being that good. His best races (Suburban, Gold Cup) would be looked at as flukes

[brunanas]

i don't like to pick sides but to be honest i do think saying he should be gelded is a reach. sure he hasn't had a good year, but still he had some nice runs such as the Whitney and the JC Gold Cup as well as finishing a nice third in the Travers to Tiz the Law who was at his absolute peak in the race. i think he should be given a chance, even if not in the US, who knows what he might throw? if even horses that basically strictly ran in claimers are given a shot (even if it's really minor), why shouldn't he?

He never ran in the Whitney....

I’m not going back to his 3 year old year, which was pretty solid. But his performances starting with the Classic have been incredibly awful...I actually hadn’t thought of him being sold overseas, which I don’t want; I can see that happening.

autocorrect, meant the Withers. and i mean, so nice many stallions had awful performances at some point. idk if that should be a way to judge who should and who shouldn't go to the shed.

[SukiSatsuki]

Geld him. Hes not really wanted or needed at stud. If you want to breed to a ap indy you can still breed to honor code,hes cheaper than honor ap.

[Slewfan2]

Geld him. Hes not really wanted or needed at stud. If you want to breed to a ap indy you can still breed to honor code,hes cheaper than honor ap.

I would never breed to HC over HAP…

[SukiSatsuki]

Geld him. Hes not really wanted or needed at stud. If you want to breed to a ap indy you can still breed to honor code,hes cheaper than honor ap.

I would never breed to HC over HAP…

Well one is the son of the other so....that doesnt give honor ap any hope does it? good horse shouldnt be breeding barely done anything on the track

[Honor Code]

Well one is the son of the other so....that doesn't give honor ap any hope does it? good horse shouldnt be breeding barely done anything on the track

There are some stallions whose sires (and dams) are relatively lackluster and they do turn out to be super sires. This is the hope every breeder has (unreasonable or not) and why many give far less accomplished horses than Max Player a chance at stud.

Into Mischief has a far less accomplished record, as does Malibu Moon, Not This Time and War Front to name a few. Not saying he will become any of these (and the odds are against him) but this is why he does deserve a chance at stud even if it is regional only.

[BaroqueAgain1]

SS: "Geld him. Hes not really wanted or needed at stud."

Now IMHO he should NOT be gelded, considering this opinion.

[SukiSatsuki]

Well one is the son of the other so....that doesn't give honor ap any hope does it? good horse shouldnt be breeding barely done anything on the track

There are some stallions whose sires (and dams) are relatively lackluster and they do turn out to be super sires. This is the hope every breeder has (unreasonable or not) and why many give far less accomplished horses than Max Player a chance at stud.

Into Mischief has a far less accomplished record, as does Malibu Moon, Not This Time and War Front to name a few. Not saying he will become any of these (and the odds are against him) but this is why he does deserve a chance at stud even if it is regional only.

Malibu Moon threw quite a lot of unsound horses. And honestly its crazy to think youd be able to get a super stallion from lack luster families. Maybe hed be a good stud in a tiny market like alaska or ohio or idaho somewhere tiny and his stud fee shouldnt be more than 7k

[Honor Code]

Malibu Moon threw quite a lot of unsound horses. And honestly its crazy to think youd be able to get a super stallion from lack luster families. Maybe hed be a good stud in a tiny market like alaska or ohio or idaho somewhere tiny and his stud fee shouldnt be more than 7k

I’m glad to see you agree. Yes, the chances of becoming a super sire are low, but it does happen.

As you say, he does deserve his chance at stud even if it is in a regional program. As for his fee, I leave that to the experts.

[Slewfan2]

Geld him. Hes not really wanted or needed at stud. If you want to breed to a ap indy you can still breed to honor code,hes cheaper than honor ap.

I would never breed to HC over HAP…

Well one is the son of the other so....that doesnt give honor ap any hope does it? good horse shouldnt be breeding barely done anything on the track

I was going to answer this, but I’m not going to bother after reading that last comment.

[Slewfan2]

Well one is the son of the other so....that doesn't give honor ap any hope does it? good horse shouldnt be breeding barely done anything on the track

There are some stallions whose sires (and dams) are relatively lackluster and they do turn out to be super sires. This is the hope every breeder has (unreasonable or not) and why many give far less accomplished horses than Max Player a chance at stud.

Into Mischief has a far less accomplished record, as does Malibu Moon, Not This Time and War Front to name a few. Not saying he will become any of these (and the odds are against him) but this is why he does deserve a chance at stud even if it is regional only.

Malibu Moon was brilliantly fast - and, a son of an incredibly successful sire. His owner also had tremendous faith in him, and supported him. Max is not that fast, and he’s a son of an incredibly inconsistent sire who the market gave up on early. I’d be shocked if any farm in a major racing state will want to give this guy a shot. I take no pleasure in saying this, believe me.

[Flanders]

My guess is he ends up in Saudi Arabia when his racing career is over. They love the A.P. Indy lines.

Thing is, he does have some early speed, he showed that in the JCGC and Suburban last year when he won. Just the jockey has to ask him for it right out of the gate or he breaks slow and languishes at the back. He runs worse when he is back far. I do not know why they haven't tried putting him close to the pace again but the last time they did was the JCGC.

[swale1984]

My guess is he ends up in Saudi Arabia when his racing career is over. They love the A.P. Indy lines.

Thing is, he does have some early speed, he showed that in the JCGC and Suburban last year when he won. Just the jockey has to ask him for it right out of the gate or he breaks slow and languishes at the back. He runs worse when he is back far. I do not know why they haven't tried putting him close to the pace again but the last time they did was the JCGC.

Turkey could be an option too, but I would give him a chance just because that's a decent female family, esp further back with 4th dam Halory.

[Mylute]

I don't think every intact colt that's won a GS should retire to stud, but Max Player has quite a bit more going for him other than that.

Additionally, Honor Code's recent lack of popularity doesn't mean a lot, because we have quite a few studs with non-commercial pedigrees get retired to Kentucky. See: Army Mule.

However, I don't typically like when I see that much inbreeding that close.

He would be up against it, what with all the flash in the pan Into Mischief sons out there, but he would at least be a different flavor.