Pedigree Talk

[Flanders]

I wanted to start a thread where we could just talk about anything pedigree related. Want to ask about a favorite or just any horse? Want to talk an obscure horse you found in a pedigree? Post here.

[Mylute]

I want to reiterate how interesting it was that the winners of both G1 races for colts on September 7 have unknown broodmare sires. I've found a plethora of other "who's" when looking at pedigrees but it'll take them a while to come back to mind.

Jackie's Warrior ---> A.P. Five Hundred
Dr. Schivel ---> Mining For Money

[Flanders]

The first horse I want to talk about is, Mucho Unusual. Well not really her, her female line. I like to look at horse's pedigrees and see what lines they come from, look for interesting names I'm not familiar with. While looking at her pedigree I thought, Ahh Cosmah, but then I realized it said Cosmiah. Who I figured had to be a daughter of Cosmah, though one I wasn't familiar with. Cosmah was a MSW and 1974 Kentucky Broodmare of the Year. Among her 15 foals are multiple Champion Tosmah, Halo, Fathers Image, and Maribeau. She has quite a few daughters who established their own branches of the family. Cosmiah is her second foal, an unraced daughter of Olympia. Her branch of the family has been quiet, probably why I never took note of her before. Only producing 11 SWs, including 4 GSWs(all since 2007). It amazing to me how a family can remain quiet for so long then look like its maybe coming back to life. On Saturday, Mucho Unusual became the first G1SW for this branch of the family, she was the first G2SW as well. Her dam, Not Unsual, has produced 2 GSWs from 5 foals of racing age, not bad for a claimer who was running on the California fair circuit toward the end of her racing career. I'm going to briefly going into their produce records below.

1964 - Map Maker - c. by Tudor Minstrel - 1 win in 2 starts. He did go to stud, siring 42 foals and 2 Stakes Winners.
1967 - Candy Coated - g. by Candy Spots - winner in 30 starts (not sure how many wins he had)
1968 - Black Match, g. by Kauai King - 22 wins in 107 starts
1969 - Fancy Jet, f by Nearctic - unplaced in 2 starts - see below
1971 - Super Stark, c. by Graustark - 2 wins in 9 starts
1973 - Camera, f. by T.V. Commercial - unplaced in 2 starts - produced foals but I'm not find anything of note from her line
1977 - Olypian Prince, c. by Prince Dantan - winner in 23 starts. No I didn't mistype his name, its spelled that way.... Honestly don't think I ever heard of his sire either
1979 - Muriesk, f. by Nashua - SW/MSpw, 3 wins in 22 starts. Dam of SW Border Cat, Spw Hurricane Cat, and unraced My Rainbow (her descendants have produced G3SWs Salty Strike, Eishin Lombard, SWs Salty Response, Delancy, Bella Notte)

Fancy Jet produced:
Bird of Courage, c. by Great Career - MSW who had a pretty nice record of (55)20-18-5 $86,910, while running at Canadian and Northwest US tracks. Like Northlands, Longacres, Lethbridge, Exhibition, Sandown, and ventured into California for 2 starts at Pomona, 1 at Fresno, and 1 at Santa Anita. The vast majority of his starts were at Exhibition, which is now Hastings.
Laura's Jet, f. by Wajima - SW - 4 wins from 17 starts.
Our Casey's Boy, c. by Blushing Groom - G1Spw - sire in South Africa - he got 16 SWs (4%) from 430 foals.
Mulhollande, c. by Nureyev - G3Spw - stood 3 years in Ireland before being exported to India. has at least 1 SW

Laura's Jet - one of her daughter's is the grand dam of a very minor Spw.

Fly First Class, f. by General Meeting - produced a couple winners, including Not Unsual.

Not Unusual, f. by Unusual Heat - 3 wins in 17 starts.
2012 - Unusually Big, g. by Mr. Big - 11 wins in 57 starts, last raced in July of this year.
2014 - Big Score, c. by Mr. Big - G3SW/MG2spw - 5 wins in 21 starts, still active.
2015 - Big Buzz, g. by Mr. Big - 2 wins in 24 starts, still active
2016 - Mucho Unusual, f. by Mucho Macho Man - G1SW - 5 wins in 16 starts
2018 - Big Talker, c. by Mr. Big - unplaced in 2 starts

[Flanders]

I want to reiterate how interesting it was that the winners of both G1 races for colts on September 7 have unknown broodmare sires. I've found a plethora of other "who's" when looking at pedigrees but it'll take them a while to come back to mind.

Jackie's Warrior ---> A.P. Five Hundred
Dr. Schivel ---> Mining For Money

Yeah it was. I think I mentioned how few foals they actually had to accomplish something like that and they were both regional sires. This is the part I love about pedigrees, when just ??? names show up.

[Equipoise]

Thank you for this thread, Flanders. As a pedigree-geek this is a subject near and dear to my heart.

Rushie, who won the Pat Day Mile this year, goes back to Gallopade in the female line. It’s the family of Lexington’s old foe Lecomte. Amazing such an old family can still produce stakes winners.

[Mylute]

I've always intended to dig really deep into PQ and find all the currently active (racing/breeding) descendants of Sir Barton. Never found the time to do it though. I know I have found a couple before. Mostly out west.

I like it when I find a successful horse who has a female ancestor that only produced 1 foal (a filly of course) and because of that 1 foal she had before whatever happened to her, this horse exists.

[Flanders]

I've always intended to dig really deep into PQ and find all the currently active (racing/breeding) descendants of Sir Barton. Never found the time to do it though. I know I have found a couple before. Mostly out west.

I like it when I find a successful horse who has a female ancestor that only produced 1 foal (a filly of course) and because of that 1 foal she had before whatever happened to her, this horse exists.

Yeah but then its sad. Cause what could the mare have produced if she lived longer. Its why I want Carson City's line to continue, he was his dam's only foal. Also I briefly wrote about Harvest Storm in the offspring/siblings thread. While Salsabil had 5 foals before dying, her daughter Muhaba (Harvest Moon's 3rd dam) only produced 3 foals, 2 colts and 1 filly.

[Equipoise]

Shenanigans is another example of that. She only had two fillies. Ruffian died at three, so Shenanigans’ female descendants come from Laughter. Her descendants include Private Terms, Coronado’s Quest, Orb, etc. Pretty impressive.

[Mylute]

Maximum Security's grandpa Anasheed is interesting.

He comes from a nice family (The Garden Club, Up the Flagpole, etc) but never sired anything of real note and is now in Russia, per PQ. Sired approximately 50-60ish US foals.

[KatieK101]

It always bums me out when a good mare dies without producing a filly. Globe Trot and Indyan Giving are two that always come immediately to mind.

Globe Trot only had three colts, but they went on to become Grade 1 winners (Bolt d'Oro, Global Campaign) and a MSW (Sonic Mule).
Indyan Giving also produced three colts: Eclipse champion Game Winner, G2W Flagstaff, and the unraced Midnight Vision (according to Equibase).

I was starting to worry that Justwhistledixie would never produce a filly, but she finally had an Arrogate filly, I believe.

[Mylute]

Pretty sure Catch the Moon (dam of Cocked and Loaded, Girvin, Pirate's Punch, Midnight Bourbon) has never had a filly.

[CorridorZ75]

Thank you for this thread, Flanders. As a pedigree-geek this is a subject near and dear to my heart.

Rushie, who won the Pat Day Mile this year, goes back to Gallopade in the female line. It’s the family of Lexington’s old foe Lecomte. Amazing such an old family can still produce stakes winners.

This is why I love the A4 family- they were getting champions in the 19th century and still getting champions in the 21st, not to mention also getting a Derby winner that must have really burned the Brits that had just passed the Jersey Act. Personally, I think all that "tainted" blood is why the family has stayed strong for so long.

[Slinky_Malinky]

Her dam, Not Unsual, has produced 2 GSWs from 5 foals of racing age, not bad for a claimer who was running on the California fair circuit toward the end of her racing career.

Not Unusual, f. by Unusual Heat - 3 wins in 17 starts.
2012 - Unusually Big, g. by Mr. Big - 11 wins in 57 starts, last raced in July of this year.
2014 - Big Score, c. by Mr. Big - G3SW/MG2spw - 5 wins in 21 starts, still active.
2015 - Big Buzz, g. by Mr. Big - 2 wins in 24 starts, still active
2016 - Mucho Unusual, f. by Mucho Macho Man - G1SW - 5 wins in 16 starts
2018 - Big Talker, c. by Mr. Big - unplaced in 2 starts

That's a bit unfair to Not Unusual. She wasn't competitive at the big tracks, so her owner switched trainers and went to Golden Gate and Bay Meadows. She was competitive in allowance and AOC company there for almost 2 years.

As far as her production record -- for starters, it's hard to overstate just HOW good of a stallion Unusual Heat was, and how much he upgraded his mares:

• His highest earner, Acclamation, is out of a mare whose sire has a 0.79 AEI. (!!!)

• His second-highest earner, millionaire and Gr-1 winner The Usual Q.T., is out of a mare whose other offspring to race had 1 win between them and where the only other stakes production for 2 generations was a Gr-2 placed mare under his 3rd dam and a black-type (not even listed, just black-type) winner under his 2nd dam.

• His Gr-2 winning, multiple GR-1 placed filly Lethal Heat is out of a mare who was...the champion mare in Idaho.

• His best filly is out of a listed-class mare, who produced 9 other winners whose combined earnings are almost $75,000 LESS than her filly by Unusual Heat, and that includes foals by Awesome Again, Touch Gold, and Tapizar.

I mean, that's serious upgrading.

Not Unusual is also the first runner in that family that seems to have done much if any grass running at all (unsurprising, Unusual Heat is her sire). So when this upgraded grass filly went to an (actually really highly-producing for his opportunities) stallion in Mr. Big she got graded horses Big Score, Big Buzz, and Unusually Big, and when she went to a Gr-1 winner who is consistently upgrading his mares she produced Mucho Unusual.

About Mr. Big -- this horse had a grand total of 16 foals in his first five crops combined. Of those 16 foals, he got a graded stakes winner, a graded stakes placed horse, another who has won to date over $200,000, and another three with more than $100k in earnings. That's *really really good* for a regional stallion with such limited opportunities.

And about Mucho Macho Man -- every now and again, you get rapidly-coalescing talent in an otherwise quiet female family and a mare pops out a quality stallion. The Ur-Example is the Understanding mare Wishing Well, who was the first stakes winner in generations and who produced a horse named Sunday Silence. The mare Incantation, by Prince Blessed, produced Seattle Song and the 2nd dams of Unbridled's Song and Malabar Gold. Down Under, the stakes-placed Special Dane (who?) mare Temple Spirit (AUS) produced Gr-1 winning gelding Temple of Boom and colt Spirit of Boom -- who is now one of the top young stallions in Australia. Before Temple Spirit, that family had no black type for 4 generations. Unusual Heat is another one of those stallions. Ponche de Leona appears to be one of those "rapid coalescing of talent" mares. Whatever genetic good luck she got she passed along, and her oldest son is doing a decent job. Marconi, the Gr-2 winner, is currently serving his first season at stud in Argentina and it will be interesting to see how he does.

[Starine]

Thoughtful post, Slinky. I'd always liked Unusual Heat, and was always surprised how he really was only utilized locally. His stats definitely warranted good mares.

[Gemini]

Her dam, Not Unsual, has produced 2 GSWs from 5 foals of racing age, not bad for a claimer who was running on the California fair circuit toward the end of her racing career.

Not Unusual, f. by Unusual Heat - 3 wins in 17 starts.
2012 - Unusually Big, g. by Mr. Big - 11 wins in 57 starts, last raced in July of this year.
2014 - Big Score, c. by Mr. Big - G3SW/MG2spw - 5 wins in 21 starts, still active.
2015 - Big Buzz, g. by Mr. Big - 2 wins in 24 starts, still active
2016 - Mucho Unusual, f. by Mucho Macho Man - G1SW - 5 wins in 16 starts
2018 - Big Talker, c. by Mr. Big - unplaced in 2 starts

That's a bit unfair to Not Unusual. She wasn't competitive at the big tracks, so her owner switched trainers and went to Golden Gate and Bay Meadows. She was competitive in allowance and AOC company there for almost 2 years.

As far as her production record -- for starters, it's hard to overstate just HOW good of a stallion Unusual Heat was, and how much he upgraded his mares:

• His highest earner, Acclamation, is out of a mare whose sire has a 0.79 AEI. (!!!)

• His second-highest earner, millionaire and Gr-1 winner The Usual Q.T., is out of a mare whose other offspring to race had 1 win between them and where the only other stakes production for 2 generations was a Gr-2 placed mare under his 3rd dam and a black-type (not even listed, just black-type) winner under his 2nd dam.

• His Gr-2 winning, multiple GR-1 placed filly Lethal Heat is out of a mare who was...the champion mare in Idaho.

• His best filly is out of a listed-class mare, who produced 9 other winners whose combined earnings are almost $75,000 LESS than her filly by Unusual Heat, and that includes foals by Awesome Again, Touch Gold, and Tapizar.

I mean, that's serious upgrading.

Not Unusual is also the first runner in that family that seems to have done much if any grass running at all (unsurprising, Unusual Heat is her sire). So when this upgraded grass filly went to an (actually really highly-producing for his opportunities) stallion in Mr. Big she got graded horses Big Score, Big Buzz, and Unusually Big, and when she went to a Gr-1 winner who is consistently upgrading his mares she produced Mucho Unusual.

About Mr. Big -- this horse had a grand total of 16 foals in his first five crops combined. Of those 16 foals, he got a graded stakes winner, a graded stakes placed horse, another who has won to date over $200,000, and another three with more than $100k in earnings. That's *really really good* for a regional stallion with such limited opportunities.

And about Mucho Macho Man -- every now and again, you get rapidly-coalescing talent in an otherwise quiet female family and a mare pops out a quality stallion. The Ur-Example is the Understanding mare Wishing Well, who was the first stakes winner in generations and who produced a horse named Sunday Silence. The mare Incantation, by Prince Blessed, produced Seattle Song and the 2nd dams of Unbridled's Song and Malabar Gold. Down Under, the stakes-placed Special Dane (who?) mare Temple Spirit (AUS) produced Gr-1 winning gelding Temple of Boom and colt Spirit of Boom -- who is now one of the top young stallions in Australia. Before Temple Spirit, that family had no black type for 4 generations. Unusual Heat is another one of those stallions. Ponche de Leona appears to be one of those "rapid coalescing of talent" mares. Whatever genetic good luck she got she passed along, and her oldest son is doing a decent job. Marconi, the Gr-2 winner, is currently serving his first season at stud in Argentina and it will be interesting to see how he does.

I have to point out that Incantation is also the third dam of Lucky Pulpit, who of course sired California Chrome.

[Mylute]

G3 Athenia winner Tapit Today (Tapit) has an unheard of grandpa.

Her dam's damsire is Iz A Saros (Saros), who won the G3 Affirmed Handicap and has less than 50 offspring listed on PQ. He did sire a few stakes winners from limited numbers, namely Iza Bon Bon.

[Flanders]

G3 Athenia winner Tapit Today (Tapit) has an unheard of grandpa.

Her dam's damsire is Iz A Saros (Saros), who won the G3 Affirmed Handicap and has less than 50 offspring listed on PQ. He did sire a few stakes winners from limited numbers, namely Iza Bon Bon.

I definitely didn't know he went to stud. But looking at his pedigree, he is a full to Kentucky Oaks winner Fran's Valentine, who is probably best known as being the first Breeders Cup winner to be DQ'd.

[Mylute]

I want to reiterate how interesting it was that the winners of both G1 races for colts on September 7 have unknown broodmare sires. I've found a plethora of other "who's" when looking at pedigrees but it'll take them a while to come back to mind.

Jackie's Warrior ---> A.P. Five Hundred
Dr. Schivel ---> Mining For Money

Want to add that Schivel's dam side in the first 5 gens is composed almost entirely of stallions that were only stakes placed.

He is, however, a descendant of Derby winner Tim Tam through his mom

[Slinky_Malinky]

Thank you for this thread, Flanders. As a pedigree-geek this is a subject near and dear to my heart.

Rushie, who won the Pat Day Mile this year, goes back to Gallopade in the female line. It’s the family of Lexington’s old foe Lecomte. Amazing such an old family can still produce stakes winners.

As far as I can tell, there are three different mare lines to Gallopade still in existence. Rushie's branch is that of Lou Lanier through her granddaughter Adriana (by Hamburg ex Kildeer, by Darebin (AUS)--more on this below). This is the same branch of the family as champion and sire Discovery (broodmare sire of Bold Ruler and Native Dancer) and the incomparable and woefully misnamed No Class.

The second extant branch is that of Two Bob (The Porter ex Blessings, by Chicle), through Vespers. This is the Calumet Farm branch of Chris Evert, Chief's Crown, Tim Tam, and more recently Confessional, Ready to Confess, Sightseek and Tate's Creek. I would say that this branch is *currently* the one producing the most consistent class.

The last extant branch is that of Lizzie G, dam of Mannie Gray and Alice Gray. Alice Gray is best known for being the tail-female ancestress of important Canadian foundation sire Bunty Lawless. Mannie Gray is the more famous of the two as the dam of Domino, although her influence extends much further than that. Through her daughter Lady Reel she is the ancestress of Hamburg, who brought North American speed to French breeding via his daughters Frizette and Lady Hamburg (dam of Chicle), and he sired Adriana for the first line to Gallopade I discussed previously. Through her daughter Correction (as in the Correction Handicap), she is the ancestress of Affirmed, Miss Mary Apples, and current G1 stakes winner Lady Apple. Through her daughter Mannie Himyar, she is the ancestress of Ariel, sire of Planetoid (dam of Grey Flight) and current Australian champion sire Exceed and Excel.

Of the three branches, I would say that Mannie Gray is the most important to the breed both in North America and worldwide thanks to Domino and Hamburg. Both the Adriana branch and Two Bob branch took off with an introduction of Hamburg. Hamburg also sired Frizette, tail female ancestress of two of the modern world's most important stallions in Seattle Slew and Mr. Prospector. Chicle, out of a Hamburg mare, sired Mother Goose, whose granddaughter Almahmoud needs no introduction, and Chicleight, ancestress of the Calumet Farm family of Blue Delight, Forward Pass, Sweet Tooth, and Alydar.

[CorridorZ75]

Apparently there is a pedigree error somewhere between Judith and Lizzie G so the haplotype of this branch is different I2a from the main branch of the 23-b family which I assume would include Gallopade (M1a).