Constitution stud fee

[TapitsGal]

Constitution is a classic sire now. No doubt he gets a fee boost next season but I wonder just how much his fee will be boosted too

[ThreeMustangs]

His fee also depends on how well his progeny do at the sales.

[Ridan_Remembered]

His fee also depends on how well his progeny do at the sales.

Before his first crop hit the races, Constitution's stud career was on a very similar arch to California Chrome's stud career. Their stud fees were in the same price range. Constitution was getting about the same quality level and number of mares, and his weanlings and yearlings sold in roughly the same price range as Chrome's, but with a lower yearling average. Constitution's average yearling sales price was $76,970 through 2019. But he was 2nd leading 1st crop sire last year to American Pharoah. Constitution would have been leading 1st crop sire except that Pharoah's son, Four Wheel Drive, won the Breeders Cup Juvenile Turf Sprint. But Constitution had more winners, more stakes winners, and more graded stakes winners than any other 1st-crop sire last year.

So now, unlike Chrome, Constitution (both from the same sire line) is not in danger of being sold overseas. His currently advertised stud fee is still $40,000, but it almost certainly will go up next year. Also, he's been shuttling to Chile, but that probably will end too, because he's now way too valuable to risk. I'm glad his people gave him time to at least get his first crop running instead of giving up on him due to sales prices.

[Horsebagger]

His fee also depends on how well his progeny do at the sales.

Before his first crop hit the races, Constitution's stud career was on a very similar arch to California Chrome's stud career. Their stud fees were in the same price range. Constitution was getting about the same quality level and number of mares, and his weanlings and yearlings sold in roughly the same price range as Chrome's, but with a lower yearling average. Constitution's average yearling sales price was $76,970 through 2019. But he was 2nd leading 1st crop sire last year to American Pharoah. Constitution would have been leading 1st crop sire except that Pharoah's son, Four Wheel Drive, won the Breeders Cup Juvenile Turf Sprint. But Constitution had more winners, more stakes winners, and more graded stakes winners than any other 1st-crop sire last year.

So now, unlike Chrome, Constitution (both from the same sire line) is not in danger of being sold overseas. His currently advertised stud fee is still $40,000, but it almost certainly will go up next year. Also, he's been shuttling to Chile, but that probably will end too, because he's now way too valuable to risk. I'm glad his people gave him time to at least get his first crop running instead of giving up on him due to sales prices.

Why is California Chrome being mentioned in the same post as Constitution?? Chrome never was, nor is he now, considered an attractive stallion from a pedigree perspective, despite the stretch of commenting they're both from the 'same sire line'? Tracing back to Pulpit is about what....12% of the genetic composition? Lucky Pulpit and Tapit are about as far apart as stallions as you can find. Tapit is proving to be a sire of sires. Lucky Pulpit......uhhhhh, not so much. Constitution is proving to be an exciting stallion prospect. Beyond his racing fans, nobody is excited for Chrome as a stallion.

There is no reason to bring CC into any pedigree discussion after yesterday's victory by Tiz the Law.

[TapitsGal]

Won't Tiz the Laws Belmont win surely help constitutions progeny's sales prices? And if Tiz the Law wins the Travers, derby and Preakness won't that greatly help constitutions progeny at sales? I'm taking it day by day though I know anything can happen in racing and I'll be happy if the horse makes it to derby day in September uninjured

[Horsebagger]

Won't Tiz the Laws Belmont win surely help constitutions progeny's sales prices? And if Tiz the Law wins the Travers, derby and Preakness won't that greatly help constitutions progeny at sales? I'm taking it day by day though I know anything can happen in racing and I'll be happy if the horse makes it to derby day in September uninjured

His fee was more than likely going to bump up prior to LTL's win yesterday. He's had multiple Graded winners in his first crop. He'll get better and better mares, and yes, that will translate to higher sales prices for those individuals who have no physical issues. You don't need to be a genius to see how well his offspring are running, just like those of Tonalist.

[ThreeMustangs]

Do his individuals have physical issues? I was surprised to see that Constitution is currently 33rd on the list for 2yo sales sires.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing ... th-america

[Horsebagger]

Do his individuals have physical issues? I was surprised to see that Constitution is currently 33rd on the list for 2yo sales sires.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing ... th-america

Not sure this is the year to be measuring 2yo in training sales results. Not withstanding, he's still way ahead of Chrome on that list.

[Ridan_Remembered]

His fee also depends on how well his progeny do at the sales.

Before his first crop hit the races, Constitution's stud career was on a very similar arch to California Chrome's stud career. Their stud fees were in the same price range. Constitution was getting about the same quality level and number of mares, and his weanlings and yearlings sold in roughly the same price range as Chrome's, but with a lower yearling average. Constitution's average yearling sales price was $76,970 through 2019. But he was 2nd leading 1st crop sire last year to American Pharoah. Constitution would have been leading 1st crop sire except that Pharoah's son, Four Wheel Drive, won the Breeders Cup Juvenile Turf Sprint. But Constitution had more winners, more stakes winners, and more graded stakes winners than any other 1st-crop sire last year.

So now, unlike Chrome, Constitution (both from the same sire line) is not in danger of being sold overseas. His currently advertised stud fee is still $40,000, but it almost certainly will go up next year. Also, he's been shuttling to Chile, but that probably will end too, because he's now way too valuable to risk. I'm glad his people gave him time to at least get his first crop running instead of giving up on him due to sales prices.

Why is California Chrome being mentioned in the same post as Constitution?? Chrome never was, nor is he now, considered an attractive stallion from a pedigree perspective, despite the stretch of commenting they're both from the 'same sire line'? Tracing back to Pulpit is about what....12% of the genetic composition? Lucky Pulpit and Tapit are about as far apart as stallions as you can find. Tapit is proving to be a sire of sires. Lucky Pulpit......uhhhhh, not so much. Constitution is proving to be an exciting stallion prospect. Beyond his racing fans, nobody is excited for Chrome as a stallion.

There is no reason to bring CC into any pedigree discussion after yesterday's victory by Tiz the Law.

Oh man...what the (blank) is wrong with people these days? Why so quick to hostility and nastiness? This thread is about Constitution's stud fee. Well it just so happens that last December I did an analysis and comparison of the 2019 leading freshman sires to obtain an understanding of what results a sire needed to be at the top of that list. It turned out that at the time, Constitution and Chrome's stud careers were following a nearly identical arc, although Constitution went to stud first. The level of mares booked to them was similar. Their sales results were in the same approximate range. So I mentioned that fact here as a point of comparison. It was just information related to Constitution's stud fee that I had readily at hand. Yours is quite possibly the most hostile post I've read on this forum, and it reeks of hatred for one horse. I happened to also discuss Pharoah in my post, but of course you ignored that part of it.

Your last sentence betrays your ignorance. This thread is not about pedigrees, but about stud fees, specifically Constitution's fee. You totally missed the point. Prior to late last year, there was no excitement for Constitution as a sire. He was standing for $40,000. His yearlings and weanlings were not bringing strong prices. Yet his owners didn't give up on him. He became the #2 leading freshman sire last year and, as I pointed out, his first crop included more winners, more stakes winners, and more graded stakes winners than the #1 freshman sire of 2019, American Pharoah.

[Flanders]

Do his individuals have physical issues? I was surprised to see that Constitution is currently 33rd on the list for 2yo sales sires.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing ... th-america

I feel like 2yo sales are for pinhooking and horses that weren't ready to sale as yearlings. Not many 2yo sales have happened this year and the ones that have happened have said their numbers have been off significantly from last year. But even after saying that, yes there are going to be some bad prices, all stallions get some bad prices, its just if they also have the super nice looking, fast working and strong pedigreed individuals that balance out the average. Look at his sire, Tapit, his average price (146k) isn't much higher than Constitution(127k). But Tapit's were bred on a $300,000 fee while Constitution's were bred on a $25,000 fee.

[Mylute]

There are many wonders surrounding Lucky Pulpit's golden child.

One of them is his hate following. It is absolutely astonishing the amount of hatred this equine has generated in his so far short life.

[Slewfan2]

Won't Tiz the Laws Belmont win surely help constitutions progeny's sales prices? And if Tiz the Law wins the Travers, derby and Preakness won't that greatly help constitutions progeny at sales? I'm taking it day by day though I know anything can happen in racing and I'll be happy if the horse makes it to derby day in September uninjured

His fee was more than likely going to bump up prior to LTL's win yesterday. He's had multiple Graded winners in his first crop. He'll get better and better mares, and yes, that will translate to higher sales prices for those individuals who have no physical issues. You don't need to be a genius to see how well his offspring are running, just like those of Tonalist.

You ripped someone for mentioning CC, but then out of the blue you mention Tonalist..?

I may be taking a chance as well,, but I wonder if Honor Code will be due an increase. He’s now the second leading second crop sire, and aside from Max Player running third in the Belmont, he had Bama Breeze run a very good second in a turf stakes,

[CorridorZ75]

There are many wonders surrounding Lucky Pulpit's golden child.

One of them is his hate following. It is absolutely astonishing the amount of hatred this equine has generated in his so far short life.

It really isn't that much of a mystery. It isn't the horse as much as a fanbase that can be a bit over the top, especially on the vocal fringe, without a deeper understanding of horse racing and breeding which really grates on some people and makes them respond in kind to the opposite extreme. It is why I have always thought, if it is possible, that Chrome is one of the most overrated AND underrated horses in a long time.

As for the breeding side of things, the American market is a purely commercial one where buzz and sizzle is all. The right pedigree has to be there, the right people have to champion the sire, and the horses have to fit the physical mold of what is considered "the ideal". What I find amusing is that even after the running begins, a sire can prove himself to be a fantastic sire at getting runners and still fizzle at the sales (shout out to poster-boy Kitten's Joy). The quick hook on stallions these days has everything to do with the massive mare capital thrown at first year stallions, and I think this has everything to do with "daytraders" that entered the commercial game back in the 80s, and yeah I am including Coolmore's stallion mentality on this, even though they have been highly successful for themselves. It hasn't helped the breed or the sport.

[ThreeMustangs]

There are many wonders surrounding Lucky Pulpit's golden child.

One of them is his hate following. It is absolutely astonishing the amount of hatred this equine has generated in his so far short life.

It really isn't that much of a mystery. It isn't the horse as much as a fanbase that can be a bit over the top, especially on the vocal fringe, without a deeper understanding of horse racing and breeding which really grates on some people and makes them respond in kind to the opposite extreme. It is why I have always thought, if it is possible, that Chrome is one of the most overrated AND underrated horses in a long time.

As for the breeding side of things, the American market is a purely commercial one where buzz and sizzle is all. The right pedigree has to be there, the right people have to champion the sire, and the horses have to fit the physical mold of what is considered "the ideal". What I find amusing is that even after the running begins, a sire can prove himself to be a fantastic sire at getting runners and still fizzle at the sales (shout out to poster-boy Kitten's Joy). The quick hook on stallions these days has everything to do with the massive mare capital thrown at first year stallions, and I think this has everything to do with "daytraders" that entered the commercial game back in the 80s, and yeah I am including Coolmore's stallion mentality on this, even though they have been highly successful for themselves. It hasn't helped the breed or the sport.

This x1000.

I think Lookin at Lucky could join Kitten’s Joy as a poster boy.

[Retrospectiv]

Won't Tiz the Laws Belmont win surely help constitutions progeny's sales prices? And if Tiz the Law wins the Travers, derby and Preakness won't that greatly help constitutions progeny at sales? I'm taking it day by day though I know anything can happen in racing and I'll be happy if the horse makes it to derby day in September uninjured

His fee was more than likely going to bump up prior to LTL's win yesterday. He's had multiple Graded winners in his first crop. He'll get better and better mares, and yes, that will translate to higher sales prices for those individuals who have no physical issues. You don't need to be a genius to see how well his offspring are running, just like those of Tonalist.

You ripped someone for mentioning CC, but then out of the blue you mention Tonalist..?

Tonalist is by the same sire as Constitution, and is doing exceptionally well for a stallion farms were not eager to stand, and on a $15,000 fee.

[Slewfan2]

His fee was more than likely going to bump up prior to LTL's win yesterday. He's had multiple Graded winners in his first crop. He'll get better and better mares, and yes, that will translate to higher sales prices for those individuals who have no physical issues. You don't need to be a genius to see how well his offspring are running, just like those of Tonalist.

You ripped someone for mentioning CC, but then out of the blue you mention Tonalist..?

Tonalist is by the same sire as Constitution, and is doing exceptionally well for a stallion farms were not eager to stand, and on a $15,000 fee.

I just didn’t get the need to be so harsh. So what if someone wanted to bring up California Chrome?

[Horsebagger]

What exactly is harsh about my comment?? Constitution should be celebrated for the success of TTL yesterday. Let's not drag him down a peg by bringing in California Chrome to the discussion for comparison, who is effectively an afterthought in the stallion market at this point.

Where is Chrome now? Fantastic racehorse. Not much pedigree for a stallion. His fans need to stop waiting for him to be any kind of success in the shed. He was NEVER an attractive stallion prospect. He is by Lucky Pulpit o/o a Not for Love mare.

As for Tonalist, figure it out. He's also a son of Tapit. Not a son of Pulpit, and more directly a comparison to Constitution for a pedigree comparison.

And i'm 'ignorant'?? Good luck with that, and probably the wrong day to try and make that point. I'm having quite an amazing day at the windows, and we're having some more than decent success the past two years breeding/selling and racing homebreds.

Always interested in learning more. So please share all published work. Thanks.

[Horsebagger]

Won't Tiz the Laws Belmont win surely help constitutions progeny's sales prices? And if Tiz the Law wins the Travers, derby and Preakness won't that greatly help constitutions progeny at sales? I'm taking it day by day though I know anything can happen in racing and I'll be happy if the horse makes it to derby day in September uninjured

His fee was more than likely going to bump up prior to LTL's win yesterday. He's had multiple Graded winners in his first crop. He'll get better and better mares, and yes, that will translate to higher sales prices for those individuals who have no physical issues. You don't need to be a genius to see how well his offspring are running, just like those of Tonalist.

You ripped someone for mentioning CC, but then out of the blue you mention Tonalist..?

I may be taking a chance as well,, but I wonder if Honor Code will be due an increase. He’s now the second leading second crop sire, and aside from Max Player running third in the Belmont, he had Bama Breeze run a very good second in a turf stakes,

See post above as to why I mentioned Tonalist. (both sons of Tapit, who to be honest, I shit on as many of his early sons who went to stud were unsuccessful despite strong promotion. Turns out his later successful sons when he was bred to more attractive distance pedigrees have seemingly found some success, at least early on.) He was not a highly sought after stallion out of the gate for top mares, but I'm high on him going forward from here and believe he is strong value at $12,500. We have a 2yo filly o/o a stakes placed sprinter who looks more like her dad that her mom that we are very high on. She went back to him again this year.

And we've traded posts in the past about Honor Code. We are strong backers of Honor Code with our mares. We have a yearling colt our of our most valuable mare that has had some success with the AP Indy line stallions and he will go to the sale with a high reserve because we don't generally race colts by choice. However, Lane's End is decidedly more pragmatic about increasing stallion fees too quickly (look at Quality Road as an example), and unless Honor AP goes on to win a classic or another big G1 against older horses (which he may very well could), you may not see a fee bump in the current market.

But then again, apparently i'm ignorant, so forget everything I just said.

Enjoy your day.

Compare that to Winstar, who probably already have the calculator out to figure out how big a jump they should put on Constitution.

[Slewfan2]

What exactly is harsh about my comment?? Constitution should be celebrated for the success of TTL yesterday. Let's not drag him down a peg by bringing in California Chrome to the discussion for comparison, who is effectively an afterthought in the stallion market at this point.

Where is Chrome now? Fantastic racehorse. Not much pedigree for a stallion. His fans need to stop waiting for him to be any kind of success in the shed. He was NEVER an attractive stallion prospect. He is by Lucky Pulpit o/o a Not for Love mare.

As for Tonalist, figure it out. He's also a son of Tapit. Not a son of Pulpit, and more directly a comparison to Constitution for a pedigree comparison.

And i'm 'ignorant'?? Good luck with that, and probably the wrong day to try and make that point. I'm having quite an amazing day at the windows, and we're having some more than decent success the past two years breeding/selling and racing homebreds.

Always interested in learning more. So please share all published work. Thanks.

Um, please SHARE exactly where I called you ignorant; do not put words in my mouth just because you want to make some kind of point. Don't put words in my mouth anyway. I would never insult anyone like that on a message board.

[CorridorZ75]

His fee was more than likely going to bump up prior to LTL's win yesterday. He's had multiple Graded winners in his first crop. He'll get better and better mares, and yes, that will translate to higher sales prices for those individuals who have no physical issues. You don't need to be a genius to see how well his offspring are running, just like those of Tonalist.

You ripped someone for mentioning CC, but then out of the blue you mention Tonalist..?

I may be taking a chance as well,, but I wonder if Honor Code will be due an increase. He’s now the second leading second crop sire, and aside from Max Player running third in the Belmont, he had Bama Breeze run a very good second in a turf stakes,

See post above as to why I mentioned Tonalist. (both sons of Tapit, who to be honest, I shit on as many of his early sons who went to stud were unsuccessful despite strong promotion. Turns out his later successful sons when he was bred to more attractive distance pedigrees have seemingly found some success, at least early on.) He was not a highly sought after stallion out of the gate for top mares, but I'm high on him going forward from here and believe he is strong value at $12,500. We have a 2yo filly o/o a stakes placed sprinter who looks more like her dad that her mom that we are very high on. She went back to him again this year.

And we've traded posts in the past about Honor Code. We are strong backers of Honor Code with our mares. We have a yearling colt our of our most valuable mare that has had some success with the AP Indy line stallions and he will go to the sale with a high reserve because we don't generally race colts by choice. However, Lane's End is decidedly more pragmatic about increasing stallion fees too quickly (look at Quality Road as an example), and unless Honor AP goes on to win a classic or another big G1 against older horses (which he may very well could), you may not see a fee bump in the current market.

But then again, apparently i'm ignorant, so forget everything I just said.

Enjoy your day.

Compare that to Winstar, who probably already have the calculator out to figure out how big a jump they should put on Constitution.

At this point, with this supposedly "spectacular" second crop sire group, in the current top 20, only Constitution (AEI 1.71 (2.64 in current year) off a CI of 1.42), Khozan (1.55 off a 1.41), Daredevil (1.33 off a 1.12), and Golden Lad ( 1.53 off a 1.29) are improving their mares.

Honor Code with a 1.22 (2.07) off a 2.54 and Tonalist 1.23 (1.96) off a 1.61 are more hit or miss and Honor Code at least seems to have benefited from a very strong mare group, but at least their get seems to be improving with age as the AEI for the current year in parentheses suggests. American Pharoah, for all his gaudy SH numbers, with 1.53 (1.70) off a 3.07 just isn't doing it for me at the moment, and I do wonder what numbers "private" entails these days. What is more, very few of his runners seem to have improved much with age or distance.