Honor Code question

[Slewfan2]

But this can apply to any sire....

Below is a link to Frank Mitchell’s recent article on Honor A.P. In it, he talks about how because HC had a relatively quiet freshman season, consignors selling his second crop got nervous and people actually thought they “weren’t any good”. He actually thinks they worried too much, but the fact is, they did. Frances Karon and I discussed something similar, except she gave me stats backing up how cold HC went - at least in terms of sales. At least based in here, he’s not being bred to “good” mares - though I know I can’t expect him to have been bred to top mares.

My question is this: I know that it’s very common for people to jump off bandwagons if sires don’t get off to hot starts? I agree that HC was pretty quiet for much of his first season, but he was never going to sire precocious babies. He wasn’t given a fair chance before he was apparently deemed a failure - poor sales, reduced stud fee, etc... Given that, do you think it’s possible that he will become hot again?

https://www.paulickreport.com/features/ ... sy-family/

[Flanders]

Yes but he has to consistently get Graded Stakes winners, G1SWers and horses that make it to the TC races. Say both Max Player and Honor A P run well in the TC races this year, that will instantly make people want to breed to him and they will forgive that he doesn't get precocious 2yos. He has the pedigree to be that kind of stallion, if he will or not, only time will tell.

Curlin is a good example of people going cold on a stallion after a lackluster first crop of 2yos, he had no stakes winners, finished 9th on the Freshman Sire list, he only got 54 mares the year his first crop was 3. However his foals got better as they got older.

[Slewfan2]

Yes but he has to consistently get Graded Stakes winners, G1SWers and horses that make it to the TC races. Say both Max Player and Honor A P run well in the TC races this year, that will instantly make people want to breed to him and they will forgive that he doesn't get precocious 2yos. He has the pedigree to be that kind of stallion, if he will or not, only time will tell.

Curlin is a good example of people going cold on a stallion after a lackluster first crop of 2yos, he had no stakes winners, finished 9th on the Freshman Sire list, he only got 54 mares the year his first crop was 3. However his foals got better as they got older.

Don’t you find it kind of weird that they didn’t even give HC a full crop to before they judged him? I guess the same thing could be said about Curlin since he didn’t make his first start until he was 3 (I remember that he didn’t get off to a great start). What’s puzzling is that horses generally make their money and their reps as 3 year olds, not juveniles. The sires who command high stud fees are those who sire good 3 year olds who can go long, not the ones who generally sire early sprinters. Yet, these sires get late developers...which is to be expected, except that horse people jump off their bandwagon way too quickly. It doesn’t make sense to me.

[Flanders]

Its just how it is for every stallion. The market judges them fast, sometimes too fast.

[Flanders]

Here is a great example. His first crop is 3, he is by A.P. Indy as well and a lot of racing was missed so far this year but still they sold Commissioner.
https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing ... udi-arabia

[Slewfan2]

Here is a great example. His first crop is 3, he is by A.P. Indy as well and a lot of racing was missed so far this year but still they sold Commissioner.
https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing ... udi-arabia

Oh for pete's sake, what? That's so ridiculous! There are very few sons of AP Indy left, but hey, just sell one of the last ones.......and unlike Take Charge Indy, Commissioner won't be coming back. God, he didn't even get a real full year this year - and he was good last year, to boot.

This is so ridiculous. Bleep off, Win Star.

[Slewfan2]

Its just how it is for every stallion. The market judges them fast, sometimes too fast.

That's true.....

[Ridan_Remembered]

Here is a great example. His first crop is 3, he is by A.P. Indy as well and a lot of racing was missed so far this year but still they sold Commissioner.
https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing ... udi-arabia

Oh for pete's sake, what? That's so ridiculous! There are very few sons of AP Indy left, but hey, just sell one of the last ones.......and unlike Take Charge Indy, Commissioner won't be coming back. God, he didn't even get a real full year this year - and he was good last year, to boot.

This is so ridiculous. Bleep off, Win Star.

The sale of Commissioner is really unfortunate. Thank goodness for Honor Code and Take Charge Indy. But really, buyers need to pay more attention. The Indy line is one of the strongest sire lines in the breed and has been for a long time.

[Slewfan2]

Here is a great example. His first crop is 3, he is by A.P. Indy as well and a lot of racing was missed so far this year but still they sold Commissioner.
https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing ... udi-arabia

Oh for pete's sake, what? That's so ridiculous! There are very few sons of AP Indy left, but hey, just sell one of the last ones.......and unlike Take Charge Indy, Commissioner won't be coming back. God, he didn't even get a real full year this year - and he was good last year, to boot.

This is so ridiculous. Bleep off, Win Star.

The sale of Commissioner is really unfortunate. Thank goodness for Honor Code and Take Charge Indy. But really, buyers need to pay more attention. The Indy line is one of the strongest sire lines in the breed and has been for a long time.

I tweeted Win Star - I was very polite, but I really want an answer. This is disgraceful. I admit, I hadn't followed him as closely as Honor Code, but still....Someone shoves silly money in their face and they just blink without even considering. How dumb are they considering that Indy IS a strong sire line and - weren't they the ones who sold Take Charge Indy in the first place?

[mariasmon]

Oh for pete's sake, what? That's so ridiculous! There are very few sons of AP Indy left, but hey, just sell one of the last ones.......and unlike Take Charge Indy, Commissioner won't be coming back. God, he didn't even get a real full year this year - and he was good last year, to boot.

This is so ridiculous. Bleep off, Win Star.

The sale of Commissioner is really unfortunate. Thank goodness for Honor Code and Take Charge Indy. But really, buyers need to pay more attention. The Indy line is one of the strongest sire lines in the breed and has been for a long time.

I tweeted Win Star - I was very polite, but I really want an answer. This is disgraceful. I admit, I hadn't followed him as closely as Honor Code, but still....Someone shoves silly money in their face and they just blink without even considering. How dumb are they considering that Indy IS a strong sire line and - weren't they the ones who sold Take Charge Indy in the first place?

The bottom line is that most stallions don't make it, so cashing out is usually the smart decision financially. It's unfortunate, but it's reality.

[Flanders]

Oh for pete's sake, what? That's so ridiculous! There are very few sons of AP Indy left, but hey, just sell one of the last ones.......and unlike Take Charge Indy, Commissioner won't be coming back. God, he didn't even get a real full year this year - and he was good last year, to boot.

This is so ridiculous. Bleep off, Win Star.

The sale of Commissioner is really unfortunate. Thank goodness for Honor Code and Take Charge Indy. But really, buyers need to pay more attention. The Indy line is one of the strongest sire lines in the breed and has been for a long time.

I tweeted Win Star - I was very polite, but I really want an answer. This is disgraceful. I admit, I hadn't followed him as closely as Honor Code, but still....Someone shoves silly money in their face and they just blink without even considering. How dumb are they considering that Indy IS a strong sire line and - weren't they the ones who sold Take Charge Indy in the first place?

It would come down to the syndicate who owned him, sure WinStar would own part of him but the syndicate decides if he should be sold or not. If the majority says no, then they don't sell. The syndicate pushed to sell Take Charge Indy, I read quotes from syndicate members who said they messed up by pushing for his sell so hard.

[Slewfan2]

The sale of Commissioner is really unfortunate. Thank goodness for Honor Code and Take Charge Indy. But really, buyers need to pay more attention. The Indy line is one of the strongest sire lines in the breed and has been for a long time.

I tweeted Win Star - I was very polite, but I really want an answer. This is disgraceful. I admit, I hadn't followed him as closely as Honor Code, but still....Someone shoves silly money in their face and they just blink without even considering. How dumb are they considering that Indy IS a strong sire line and - weren't they the ones who sold Take Charge Indy in the first place?

The bottom line is that most stallions don't make it, so cashing out is usually the smart decision financially. It's unfortunate, but it's reality.

That's true, but after one year? That just doesn't seem right or fair.

[Slewfan2]

The sale of Commissioner is really unfortunate. Thank goodness for Honor Code and Take Charge Indy. But really, buyers need to pay more attention. The Indy line is one of the strongest sire lines in the breed and has been for a long time.

I tweeted Win Star - I was very polite, but I really want an answer. This is disgraceful. I admit, I hadn't followed him as closely as Honor Code, but still....Someone shoves silly money in their face and they just blink without even considering. How dumb are they considering that Indy IS a strong sire line and - weren't they the ones who sold Take Charge Indy in the first place?

It would come down to the syndicate who owned him, sure WinStar would own part of him but the syndicate decides if he should be sold or not. If the majority says no, then they don't sell. The syndicate pushed to sell Take Charge Indy, I read quotes from syndicate members who said they messed up by pushing for his sell so hard.

I didn't think about that.....I hope they regret selling Commissioner, sigh. Now I hope more than ever that Honor Code becomes a top sire .........

[Slewfan2]

Back to Honor Code - he’s doing really well now, just had a grade 1 winner, and still he did not do well at OBS sale. At what point should I be concerned ?

[Flanders]

Back to Honor Code - he’s doing really well now, just had a grade 1 winner, and still he did not do well at OBS sale. At what point should I be concerned ?

He is at Lane's End they will give him time.

[Slewfan2]

Back to Honor Code - he’s doing really well now, just had a grade 1 winner, and still he did not do well at OBS sale. At what point should I be concerned ?

He is at Lane's End they will give him time.

Oh, I’m not worried about him being sold. I just wish he were doing better in terms of sales/breeding, etc... For now, though, I’m going to just focus on how well he’s doing and hope he keeps it up!

[Flanders]

Why be concerned at all? He makes it or he doesn't. Worrying about it changes nothing and just causes stress.

[Slewfan2]

Why be concerned at all? He makes it or he doesn't. Worrying about it changes nothing and just causes stress.

Well ,I want him to be a commercial success. I'm not worried about him being a good sire, I've always believed he'd be at least that. There's nothing wrong with wanting him to do well at the sales.......But, you're right, worrying accomplishes nothing.

[Ridan_Remembered]

Why be concerned at all? He makes it or he doesn't. Worrying about it changes nothing and just causes stress.

Worrying is an expression of caring. What's wrong with caring about a horse even if only as a fan?

[Flanders]

He didn't do that bad in the 2yo sales this year, his average is slightly higher than last year, however his median price is lower. He had a 300k 2yo, last year his highest was 320k. The rest that sold were all 90-100k, with 2 RNAs around 150k, and the one was 32k. Plus I don't think the ones in the sale had particularly strong female families, you have to go back to the 3rd dam of most of them to find a GSW.

I actually think its was decent results for him compared to his 2019 yearling sales. I feel the real judge on if owners have gone off a stallion is his yearling sales so in a few months we'll see. He just needs to keep getting new Stakes winners and he needs his current SWs to keep winning.