I didn't think an outfit like Coolmore would buy into a stallion just because of earnings. They're a breeding operation, so Max's pedigree must have met their particular requirements, IMHO.
Maximum Security's stud fee
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BaroqueAgain1
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Thanks for that Keeneland-sale-page pedigree analysis, Flanders.
I didn't think an outfit like Coolmore would buy into a stallion just because of earnings. They're a breeding operation, so Max's pedigree must have met their particular requirements, IMHO.
I didn't think an outfit like Coolmore would buy into a stallion just because of earnings. They're a breeding operation, so Max's pedigree must have met their particular requirements, IMHO.
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Green Desert
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True, Flanders. I love what you stated and you say it much more professionally than I do-- but in my defense, if I look at a horse with an eye towards breeding , I am also looking at this:
His sire, New Year's Day, was retired after 3 starts due to a training injury--and we know from Servis' own words that Max is not the soundest of horses. New Year's Day entered into stud in 2014, and with 112 foals his best progeny is Maximum Security for obvious reasons, and his second best runner appears to be be Bourbon Resolution, with 249k in earnings--so a standout sire of racers he is not. Street Cry has 3 sons who have produced Grade 1 winners, but NYD would have done so already. His first book was 77 mares, and 98 mares in 2015.
Lil Indy, his dam, is fairly young at 12 years old, and is a half sister to Flat Out (Flatter.) Out of 4 foals she has produced 4 runners, one of whom is Maximum Security. One of her other foals is a gelding named Prince Tito with earnings of 145k and a race record of 33 starts 4-4-5. I often discount gelding's earnings because with less mass and other variables, there is a slight advantage to gelding horses. So, yes, there is still time--but we actually have no idea of how good or not Max is at this point due to what we now know. Her sire is Anasheed, closely related to Mineshaft, who only produced 3 minor stakes winners out of 122 foals.
Her dam. Cresta Lil, produced 10 foals with her best earners being Flat Out with a 29-9-5-5 and earnings of over 3 million, created by crossing over on AP Indy. She also has an absolute war horse whose earnings of 349k were achieved with a race record of 111 starts, 19 wins, 21 place and 21 shows (Holy Cow!) .
Cresta Lil's dam, Rugosa, is a half sister to stakes winner Worrisome Thing, and also to Rose Above, who was unraced, but features as dam of the 1987 Jim Beam Stakes (G3) and Louisiana Derby (G3) victor J. T.'s Pet, and granddam of the 2002 La Brea Stakes (G1) victress Got Koko. The family goes back to Omayya, a granddaughter of the imported English mare Sunstep, and a three-quarters sister to Galaday, the third dam of the 1954 Epsom Derby captor Never Say Die.
I know I don't say it like all of the pedigree books do, but that is what I would take into consideration when looking at a breeding stallion.
His sire, New Year's Day, was retired after 3 starts due to a training injury--and we know from Servis' own words that Max is not the soundest of horses. New Year's Day entered into stud in 2014, and with 112 foals his best progeny is Maximum Security for obvious reasons, and his second best runner appears to be be Bourbon Resolution, with 249k in earnings--so a standout sire of racers he is not. Street Cry has 3 sons who have produced Grade 1 winners, but NYD would have done so already. His first book was 77 mares, and 98 mares in 2015.
Lil Indy, his dam, is fairly young at 12 years old, and is a half sister to Flat Out (Flatter.) Out of 4 foals she has produced 4 runners, one of whom is Maximum Security. One of her other foals is a gelding named Prince Tito with earnings of 145k and a race record of 33 starts 4-4-5. I often discount gelding's earnings because with less mass and other variables, there is a slight advantage to gelding horses. So, yes, there is still time--but we actually have no idea of how good or not Max is at this point due to what we now know. Her sire is Anasheed, closely related to Mineshaft, who only produced 3 minor stakes winners out of 122 foals.
Her dam. Cresta Lil, produced 10 foals with her best earners being Flat Out with a 29-9-5-5 and earnings of over 3 million, created by crossing over on AP Indy. She also has an absolute war horse whose earnings of 349k were achieved with a race record of 111 starts, 19 wins, 21 place and 21 shows (Holy Cow!) .
Cresta Lil's dam, Rugosa, is a half sister to stakes winner Worrisome Thing, and also to Rose Above, who was unraced, but features as dam of the 1987 Jim Beam Stakes (G3) and Louisiana Derby (G3) victor J. T.'s Pet, and granddam of the 2002 La Brea Stakes (G1) victress Got Koko. The family goes back to Omayya, a granddaughter of the imported English mare Sunstep, and a three-quarters sister to Galaday, the third dam of the 1954 Epsom Derby captor Never Say Die.
I know I don't say it like all of the pedigree books do, but that is what I would take into consideration when looking at a breeding stallion.
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Flanders
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Obviously the fact his trainer was indicted for drugging horses should be included because it puts into question everything about his pedigree but I'm kind of ignoring that while looking at his pedigree.
I just think looking at his pedigree, he has a lot in common with another Coolmore stallion, in Uncle Mo. His sire Indian Charlie was a very very good stallion but he only managed 5 starts before being retired due to injury. His female family also isn't that strong and is actually worse than Maximum Security's, he only has 3 SWs under his first 3 dams. But he has become a really good stallion. I can just see what they saw to buy into him before the doping indictments came out. Also who is to say that Servis didn't lie about the horse afterwards and the reason he entered him in the claiming race? If he was doping him the whole time, maybe he was hoping to get a good bet in on the horse. For a horse with supposed soundness issues, he hasn't missed any training while he was racing. I just have a hard time believing anything Servis has said.
I just think looking at his pedigree, he has a lot in common with another Coolmore stallion, in Uncle Mo. His sire Indian Charlie was a very very good stallion but he only managed 5 starts before being retired due to injury. His female family also isn't that strong and is actually worse than Maximum Security's, he only has 3 SWs under his first 3 dams. But he has become a really good stallion. I can just see what they saw to buy into him before the doping indictments came out. Also who is to say that Servis didn't lie about the horse afterwards and the reason he entered him in the claiming race? If he was doping him the whole time, maybe he was hoping to get a good bet in on the horse. For a horse with supposed soundness issues, he hasn't missed any training while he was racing. I just have a hard time believing anything Servis has said.
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Green Desert
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Sadly, my standards might be harsher than most, which I admit--and you undoubtedly have more knowledge than I do.
I tend to entirely discount the fact that some of these horses have pedigrees that don't appear to be great on paper (truly, I LOVE the stallions/mares that outbreed their pedigree, or even completely unraced due to injury, etc which is like catching lightning in a bottle or a thousand to one chance) but as for myself, I'd probably choose someone else before I chose him at a high price, knowing this stuff now. I'd stand back and wait to see what he does progeny wise before I committed to breeding at a high stud fee.
I think that with his earnings record, which rank him as the top stallion, Coolmore probably would have set his stud fee at 50k if not a little more for his first year, and with all of this coming out the public may be unwilling to give him that chance at that price. Not least because his pedigree doesn't scream "Look at me!" If it did, people would probably still take him at a high cost. (Sadly, his sire was a value price but his foals were still a hard NO before Max came along. on the other hand, he has moved to Japan and with all of the Sunday Silence mares there, I think he might stand a better chance.)
I don't believe that Max's races will be stripped, or his earnings revoked because they still don't have the testing for this stuff. TPTB won't have a leg to stand on unless the Feds actually have him on audio expressly stating that the horse was doped for such and such races--and the problem with EPO's, of course, is that they stay in the bloodstream for to up to 180 days so there won't be a way to determine if he was specifically doped up before a large race.
I tend to entirely discount the fact that some of these horses have pedigrees that don't appear to be great on paper (truly, I LOVE the stallions/mares that outbreed their pedigree, or even completely unraced due to injury, etc which is like catching lightning in a bottle or a thousand to one chance) but as for myself, I'd probably choose someone else before I chose him at a high price, knowing this stuff now. I'd stand back and wait to see what he does progeny wise before I committed to breeding at a high stud fee.
I think that with his earnings record, which rank him as the top stallion, Coolmore probably would have set his stud fee at 50k if not a little more for his first year, and with all of this coming out the public may be unwilling to give him that chance at that price. Not least because his pedigree doesn't scream "Look at me!" If it did, people would probably still take him at a high cost. (Sadly, his sire was a value price but his foals were still a hard NO before Max came along. on the other hand, he has moved to Japan and with all of the Sunday Silence mares there, I think he might stand a better chance.)
I don't believe that Max's races will be stripped, or his earnings revoked because they still don't have the testing for this stuff. TPTB won't have a leg to stand on unless the Feds actually have him on audio expressly stating that the horse was doped for such and such races--and the problem with EPO's, of course, is that they stay in the bloodstream for to up to 180 days so there won't be a way to determine if he was specifically doped up before a large race.
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Private Thoughts
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I hope for the same as well.
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CorridorZ75
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I can see why they put him here- if they went lower, it would be obvious they had no faith in him. However, in this economy, with fewer mares being bred, I also think there are way better and proven options at that price point. The Wests have plenty of mares, but they also now have several stallions they need to support. I just think, it will be tough sledding for him. However, the regional markets are not the sure thing these days either as so few mares are being bred in those as well.