Maximum Security's stud fee

Green Desert · Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:36 pm

None of us know what Coolmore is going to do with their partnership in Maximum Security, or even if they DO have the right to pull out (no pun intended

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I'm sure they already had plans to jack up his stud fees to as high as possible based on his earnings, which are now in question--or at least questionable as to how he achieved them. After all, it has been noted already that he is not a very sound horse before the juicing came to light. There's not a doubt in my mind that they have lawyers looking into this situation to find out their options.
Do you think they will...
Quietly transfer their interest in him to someone else, possibly out of the country?
Try to stand him at a very high fee based on his earnings?
Or do you think they will stand him by "private treaty?" and basically try to get some interest going in him?

Do you think that American breeders are honestly going to be interested in breeding to him?

BaroqueAgain1 · Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:43 pm

Well, he is fast, and American breeders love fast horses, so...maybe?
There are probably a bunch of breeders out there right now weighing the pros and cons of Max. Is his conformation good? Does his pedigree give value? Will he show the same talent running for a different trainer (who I suspect is going to go hayoats&water with him as much as possible, since scrutiny is going to be rabid paparazzi-like), proving that he is actually a good horse?
Stay tuned.

Mylute · Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:05 pm

Private

Falinadin · Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:25 pm

If Max keeps his G1 wins and his championship, then I think Coolmore keeps him but lowers his stud fee a bit or makes it private.
If Max loses his G1 wins and his championship, I think Coolmore backs out since they bought into him after his 3yo season, and how on earth do they advertise a horse with zero wins.
It'll be up to the powers that be as to what happens with the wins and championship. Per the Bloodhorse article, there is no protocol for stripping a championship, and the committee will need to meet to discuss the issue. And, this would all be assuming that Servis is found guilty (which seems very likely based on the indictment).

Green Desert · Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:07 pm

BaroqueAgain1 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:43 pm Well, he is fast, and American breeders love fast horses, so...maybe?
There are probably a bunch of breeders out there right now weighing the pros and cons of Max. Is his conformation good? Does his pedigree give value? Will he show the same talent running for a different trainer (who I suspect is going to go hayoats&water with him as much as possible, since scrutiny is going to be rabid paparazzi-like), proving that he is actually a good horse?
Stay tuned.

Speed is quite the interesting word, in itself when it refers to him.
Because no one will ever actually know if he actually has that speed, or was it the juice doing it for him? At least one of the drugs mentioned add oxygenation carried throughout the body, which affects athletes by giving them the ability to run further and faster than they might otherwise have done, which therefore casts doubt on any speed numbers given.
I do agree that Baffert will go with water, hay and oats due to the scrutiny, and I think that IF he ever goes to the races again (I'm not sure that any of the horses should for safety reasons, myself) a huge drop in his abilities will be seen.
There's a huge conflict here right now, I am sure. Take the chance of racing him off of the meds and risk discovering that he actually doesn't have that much ability, or retire him--a horse Servis has already noted is unsound--and risk everyone avoiding him due to the the questions surrounding him.

Green Desert · Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:18 pm

Falinadin wrote: ↑Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:25 pm If Max keeps his G1 wins and his championship, then I think Coolmore keeps him but lowers his stud fee a bit or makes it private.
If Max loses his G1 wins and his championship, I think Coolmore backs out since they bought into him after his 3yo season, and how on earth do they advertise a horse with zero wins.
It'll be up to the powers that be as to what happens with the wins and championship. Per the Bloodhorse article, there is no protocol for stripping a championship, and the committee will need to meet to discuss the issue. And, this would all be assuming that Servis is found guilty (which seems very likely based on the indictment).

While I see that there is no precedent to stripping anyone of titles/honors, the time is now to start discussing and implementing it. I think beyond a shadow of a doubt the yearly awards titles need to be stripped, but as to individual grade 1's, I think that might be tough to do unless it comes up during the trials that the Feds can prove that the horses were juiced up to win specific races. And since the FBI, etc have no particular interest in that part of the case except to prove that the mislabeled drugs were used at that time for a specific reason, it might not be addressed in court.
What I also know is that while this might be the Feds case, it wouldn't necessarily stop the individual states from pressing forward with their own charges based on any information provided if they should so desire (and I certainly hope that they choose to do so.)

BaroqueAgain1 · Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:23 am

Maximum Security was the first horse to be DQ'd in the Kentucky Derby.
It looks like Max could set another unhappy precedent by being the first horse to be stripped of an Eclipse Award.

Poor Max...it's not his fault that some of his human connections are lower than pond scum. That horse deserves to have a clear double-barrel rear leg shot at Servis' jewels for ruining his reputation.

Green Desert · Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:43 am

Agreed. I do wonder, however, if he would have made it to those same dizzying heights without Servis' pharmaceutical help. There's no way of knowing exactly what he could have done without the aid of the juice, so I'm always reminded that his owners put him in a 16k claimer for a reason.

Green Desert · Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:01 am

"EPO EPO, short for erythropoietin, helps produce red blood cells that allow a person or horse to perform at peak levels longer. It is better known by the brand names Epogen and Aranesp, and it can make a horse go anywhere from two to six seconds faster during a race."
So who is to say that Max's speed was his own?

TapitsGal · Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:32 am

I've heard that there's talk of stripping him of his Eclipse Award
Ive also heard that there's talk of his wins in New Jersey races such as the Haskell etc being taken away..

I'm not sure what coolmore does with max. Before all this even played out, I wasn't ever convinced that Coolmore/Ashford planned to keep him in Kentucky long-term. I figured they'd send him the Hansen route(keep him in Kentucky long enough to breed him to enough mares to recoup his purchase price then quietly ship him out of the country to Turkey, Korea or Japan before his first foals even hit the ground).. Maximum Security certainly does NOT have the type of pedigree Coolmore typically desires to hold on to long term...But now between the whole Maximum Security saga and the American Pharoah/Zayat debacle I could see Coolmore wanting to stay away from as much controversy as possible, quietly backing out of the breeding contract and telling West "sorry find another farm"....my main question is after this, should coolmore back out...do you see ANY mainstream Kentucky farm stepping in to offer maximum security a backup home? Or do you simply see him quietly going to Maryland, Pennsylvania, ohio, California or some other regional farm? Or going overseas?

carole · Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:42 am

I think Coolmore will either send him to stud somewhere in South America or they will stand him privately for a couple of seasons to see how his foals pan out and indeed if they have any talent at all.

stark · Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:55 am

Clip him and send him to join Point Given, Da Hoss, Funny Cide, and Go for Gin at the Kentucky Horse Park.
Maybe he'll make for a good public attraction.

Nobody on the breeding end needs his business.
Time to end the story.

carole · Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:20 pm

stark wrote: ↑Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:55 am Clip him and send him to join Point Given, Da Hoss, Funny Cide, and Go for Gin at the Kentucky Horse Park.
Maybe he'll make for a good public attraction.

Nobody on the breeding end needs his business.
Time to end the story.

I agree

Ziggypop · Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:24 pm

stark wrote: ↑Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:55 am Clip him and send him to join Point Given, Da Hoss, Funny Cide, and Go for Gin at the Kentucky Horse Park.
Maybe he'll make for a good public attraction.

Nobody on the breeding end needs his business.
Time to end the story.

After what he has been through, he needs an assured soft landing. Good grief. Not his fault humans have so miserably abused him.

WarBiscuit · Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:18 pm

stark wrote: ↑Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:55 am Clip him and send him to join Point Given, Da Hoss, Funny Cide, and Go for Gin at the Kentucky Horse Park.
Maybe he'll make for a good public attraction.

Nobody on the breeding end needs his business.
Time to end the story.

That would be kindest and most sensible decision, so it probably won't happen. Sell him as a regional stallion maybe ?

WarBiscuit

Mylute · Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:27 pm

Regardless of what happens, Max will be a popular attraction.

WarBiscuit · Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:09 pm

Mylute wrote: ↑Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:27 pm Regardless of what happens, Max will be a popular attraction.

Undoubtedly true. Unlikely he'll ever be left wanting for fans. If only he could talk...

WarBiscuit

Green Desert · Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:55 am

stark wrote: ↑Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:55 am Clip him and send him to join Point Given, Da Hoss, Funny Cide, and Go for Gin at the Kentucky Horse Park.
Maybe he'll make for a good public attraction.

Nobody on the breeding end needs his business.
Time to end the story.

I think that is a great idea, actually!
in some horse registries, the horse can be stricken off the books, with any foals unable to be registered. Ideally, that would mean people don't breed, which wouldn't hurt my feelings. Even Servis has admitted that he has problems after every race (gee, could that be the drugs you pumped him with to cover up his physical issues and give him some speed?) which could mean that he adds more unsoundness to the gene pool. Add that to a pedigree that doesn't impress, and his earnings were the most attractive thing about him.
I'm going to guess that if Coolmore retains their interest in him if they can't get out of it--I don't think we will actually hear much until the actual trials take place--and they might stand him for a year, and then ship him off to a foreign country willing to take the risk on him. But the stud fee..I can't figure out if they will try to bite the bullet and go high to try to make his purchase price back, or go exceptionally low to hopefully raise people's interest in breeding to him. (And when I say low, I mean in the 5k range.)

BaroqueAgain1 · Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:44 am

I keep reading that Max's pedigree is 'meh,' but his grandsire is the great Street Cry and his grand dam is Justwhistledixie, who foaled not only New Year's Day, but also Mohaymen. (Maybe other winners, but that's what I have ATM?

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Isn't that at least a nice pedigree?

Flanders · Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:17 am

BaroqueAgain1 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:44 am I keep reading that Max's pedigree is 'meh,' but his grandsire is the great Street Cry and his grand dam is Justwhistledixie, who foaled not only New Year's Day, but also Mohaymen. (Maybe other winners, but that's what I have ATM? )
Isn't that at least a nice pedigree?

He has a nice pedigree. They say it because neither his sire or broodmare sire were huge successes or fashionable, its a similar situation to California Chrome.

New Years Day was a Champion 2yo, by Street Cry who needs no introduction. His dam, Justwhistledixie, was a G2SW and has produced 4 GSWs from 5 foals to race.

Lil Indy, while she hasn't produced much outside of Maximum Security, is still young. Her sire, Anasheed, couldn't be bred more in the purple. He is by A.P. Indy out of a G1SW/global trotter/European Champion mare Flagbird. Flagbird is a 1/2 sister to the G1SWing A.P. Indy filly, Runup the Colors(dam of G2 Revolutionary) and MG1SW Prospectors Delite, who produced HOTY Mineshaft and MG1SW Tomisue's Delight, both by A.P. Indy, among her 5 foals, 5 starters, 5 SWers. I could keep writing about this family, its very deep.

Maximum Security's 2nd dam, Cresta Lil produced MG1SW Flat Out and he shares the same 3rd dam as G1SW Got Koko. Cresta Lil's sire, Cresta Rider, was G2SW/G1 Classic placed son of Northern Dancer, who stood at Gainesway for $40,000 before being sold to Chile at age 11.