Sad state of breeding

[WildAgainFan74]

It pains me to look over the current stallion directories. It is horrifying that we have lost good outcross sires. It wasn't that long ago when outcross stallions were valued and successful. In our not too distant past, we had A.P. Indy, Wild Again, Broad Brush, Dynaformer, Rahy, Cozzene. For us regional breeders on budget, we had Runaway Groom, Slew City Slew, and Out of Place in KY. Concorde's Tune, Halo's Image, Skip Trial, Montbrook in FL. We had Desputed testimony, Disco Rico, and Citidancer in the mid-Atlantic. Stalwart, Waquoit, Raffie's Majesty in NY.

I blame the shift in breeding on breeding to sell instead of race. I bred to race. Now, I see all these KY farms offering incentives based on sales. Everything is sales and more sales. The industry pushed for bringing business men and women into the sport. Well, it worked. The downside is that they want a return on their investment and they want it fast. it is all about money. It is not about the love of the horse and the love of the sport. It's not about personal pride of breeding a top winner and passion and dedication. It's about breeding a sales topper. It's about how quickly can they get a return on their investment. Until we make the shift back to breeding to race, the breed will continue to suffer.

The stallions utilized will continue to be unsound, precocious horses with fantastic physicals. The Ghostzappers will prevail. The hard knocking, sound in wind and limb, and nice footed horses who run long and mature slow will continue to disappear. I don't know why there isn't more outrage. I am horrified at the state of affairs regarding breeding today and sad that so many breeders have chosen to focus on the sale horses. Sad. Very sad, indeed.

[Private Thoughts]

Very true, but everything in life seems to based on instant gratification in the social media age. Patience is no longer a virtue.

Like many things, longevity doesn’t factor into the equation.

I miss the days of my younger years when things moved at a slower pace.

[TBird]

It pains me to look over the current stallion directories. It is horrifying that we have lost good outcross sires. It wasn't that long ago when outcross stallions were valued and successful. In our not too distant past, we had A.P. Indy, Wild Again, Broad Brush, Dynaformer, Rahy, Cozzene. For us regional breeders on budget, we had Runaway Groom, Slew City Slew, and Out of Place in KY. Concorde's Tune, Halo's Image, Skip Trial, Montbrook in FL. We had Desputed testimony, Disco Rico, and Citidancer in the mid-Atlantic. Stalwart, Waquoit, Raffie's Majesty in NY.

I blame the shift in breeding on breeding to sell instead of race. I bred to race. Now, I see all these KY farms offering incentives based on sales. Everything is sales and more sales. The industry pushed for bringing business men and women into the sport. Well, it worked. The downside is that they want a return on their investment and they want it fast. it is all about money. It is not about the love of the horse and the love of the sport. It's not about personal pride of breeding a top winner and passion and dedication. It's about breeding a sales topper. It's about how quickly can they get a return on their investment. Until we make the shift back to breeding to race, the breed will continue to suffer.

The stallions utilized will continue to be unsound, precocious horses with fantastic physicals. The Ghostzappers will prevail. The hard knocking, sound in wind and limb, and nice footed horses who run long and mature slow will continue to disappear. I don't know why there isn't more outrage. I am horrified at the state of affairs regarding breeding today and sad that so many breeders have chosen to focus on the sale horses. Sad. Very sad, indeed.

Since you breed to race, rather than being outraged, you could see this state of affairs as offering you opportunities you might not otherwise have. The current emphasis on the sales give you the chance to breed to hard knocking, racehorse producing, stallions at reasonable prices--because they are not the sales' darlings. Then take your offspring to the track and beat the commercial breeders at their own game. Because that's where quality really gets decided, isn't it? In theory people who are "only" breeding for the sales shouldn't be producing better racehorses than you are. So show them how it should be done.

As for the stallions whose passing you mourn, if you want an AP Indy, breed to Mineshaft or Honor Code. For Wild Again, how about Bayern? Broad Brush is currently well represented by Include. Dynaformer --> Temple City, Cozzene --> Mizzen Mast, etc etc. The diversity is still out there, it just has different names now.

[WildAgainFan74]

Tbird, yes, I did breed to race but am retired now. Those stallions you mentioned can't hold a candle to the stallions I mentioned. I'm not just hoping for outcross stallions. I'm hoping for GOOD outcross stallions. Furthermore, it is the whole industry that needs to change. A few small breeders will not be able to accomplish much. You might not think it is that important but the number of starts continues to plummet. The horses have become fragile over the decades. I feel like we are at a major crossroads if we want to save the breed. It's sounds dramatic but it is very much true. Once breeding is gone, it can't be brought back. The industry itself needs to change and the only way that can happen is with pressure from the outside and from within.

[ElPrado2]

Where are they going to stand?

If they don't explode all over the sales ring the stallions end up in Turkey, Korea, Argentina, Saudi Arabia or South Africa by their 4th year at stud.

[Northport]

In what world do Ghostzappers not run long and mature slow....? I kind of get your argument but he's a pretty terrible example. He's kind of the definition of being unpopular at the sales and having late bloomers. His top progeny are Shaman Ghost (broke his maiden March of his 3 y/o year, won Graded Stakes until he was 5), Moreno (broke maiden June of his 3 y/o year, won Graded Stakes until he was 5), Judy the Beauty (broke maiden in July of 2 y/o year, raced until she was 6, won Graded stakes until she was 5), Holy Helena (broke maiden April of 3 y/o year, is currently winning Graded Stakes as a 5 year old), Paulassilverlining (broke maiden in August of 3 y/o year, won Graded Stakes as a 5 year old), Better Lucky (broke maiden in December of 2 y/o year, won Graded Stakes as a 4 year old, GSP as a 5 year old).

But, go off I guess.

[Calypso]

Where are they going to stand?

If they don't explode all over the sales ring the stallions end up in Turkey, Korea, Argentina, Saudi Arabia or South Africa by their 4th year at stud.

In fairness I think that's the point the original post was making. If a stallion doesn't yield an immediate return on investment he gets carted off overseas somewhere. Most of the old distance loving warhorses who should be front and center in the breeding spotlight are being sent to small regional markets where they never really get a chance.

[swale1984]

I've been lurking for a while after taking a (several year) hiatus from posting, but this is a subject near and dear to my heart. I totally concur with the original assessment. I feel like we are seeing the effect of bad breeding practices. The American thoroughbred industry needs to enact some standards for breeding stock. It used to be "breed the best to the best and hope for the best". Now, it seems like it's "breed a precocious but probably unsound stallion to whoever can pay the stud fee".

[Izvestia]

In what world do Ghostzappers not run long and mature slow....? I kind of get your argument but he's a pretty terrible example. He's kind of the definition of being unpopular at the sales and having late bloomers. His top progeny are Shaman Ghost (broke his maiden March of his 3 y/o year, won Graded Stakes until he was 5), Moreno (broke maiden June of his 3 y/o year, won Graded Stakes until he was 5), Judy the Beauty (broke maiden in July of 2 y/o year, raced until she was 6, won Graded stakes until she was 5), Holy Helena (broke maiden April of 3 y/o year, is currently winning Graded Stakes as a 5 year old), Paulassilverlining (broke maiden in August of 3 y/o year, won Graded Stakes as a 5 year old), Better Lucky (broke maiden in December of 3/o year, won Graded Stakes as a 4 year old, GSP as a 5 year old).

But, go off I guess.

Ghostzapper is a terrible example. Agreed.

[Gemini]

It pains me to look over the current stallion directories. It is horrifying that we have lost good outcross sires. It wasn't that long ago when outcross stallions were valued and successful. In our not too distant past, we had A.P. Indy, Wild Again, Broad Brush, Dynaformer, Rahy, Cozzene. For us regional breeders on budget, we had Runaway Groom, Slew City Slew, and Out of Place in KY. Concorde's Tune, Halo's Image, Skip Trial, Montbrook in FL. We had Desputed testimony, Disco Rico, and Citidancer in the mid-Atlantic. Stalwart, Waquoit, Raffie's Majesty in NY.

I blame the shift in breeding on breeding to sell instead of race. I bred to race. Now, I see all these KY farms offering incentives based on sales. Everything is sales and more sales. The industry pushed for bringing business men and women into the sport. Well, it worked. The downside is that they want a return on their investment and they want it fast. it is all about money. It is not about the love of the horse and the love of the sport. It's not about personal pride of breeding a top winner and passion and dedication. It's about breeding a sales topper. It's about how quickly can they get a return on their investment. Until we make the shift back to breeding to race, the breed will continue to suffer.

The stallions utilized will continue to be unsound, precocious horses with fantastic physicals. The Ghostzappers will prevail. The hard knocking, sound in wind and limb, and nice footed horses who run long and mature slow will continue to disappear. I don't know why there isn't more outrage. I am horrified at the state of affairs regarding breeding today and sad that so many breeders have chosen to focus on the sale horses. Sad. Very sad, indeed.

Since you breed to race, rather than being outraged, you could see this state of affairs as offering you opportunities you might not otherwise have. The current emphasis on the sales give you the chance to breed to hard knocking, racehorse producing, stallions at reasonable prices--because they are not the sales' darlings. Then take your offspring to the track and beat the commercial breeders at their own game. Because that's where quality really gets decided, isn't it? In theory people who are "only" breeding for the sales shouldn't be producing better racehorses than you are. So show them how it should be done.

As for the stallions whose passing you mourn, if you want an AP Indy, breed to Mineshaft or Honor Code. For Wild Again, how about Bayern? Broad Brush is currently well represented by Include. Dynaformer --> Temple City, Cozzene --> Mizzen Mast, etc etc. The diversity is still out there, it just has different names now.

I'm not a breeder, but both Mizzen Mast and Include are getting up there in years and don't seem to have any sons ready to carry on the line after they're gone.

From what I've seen/read, most of the "outcross" stallions are getting shuffled off to increasingly remote regions. If you're a breed to race person living in, say, Louisiana and your desired outcross stallion is located in Pennsylvania or California, it might be too difficult or financially infeasible to breed to the stallion no matter how much you want to.

I know the Jockey Club remains firmly against AI, but I'm beginning to think AI might be the only way to save some of these rare bloodlines.

[ElPrado2]

We don't need to worry.
The new craze seems to be wait until they are 3 before the great unveiling. That will last until they notice the Breeders Cup 2 year old races seem to have disappeared.

[Flanders]

I know the Jockey Club remains firmly against AI, but I'm beginning to think AI might be the only way to save some of these rare bloodlines.

AI would make the situation worse. The vast majority of owners aren't going to send a mare to a stallion simply because he has outcross or rare lines. He needs to prove himself as a stallion.

If the Jockey Club allowed AI the stud fees would drop. Thus resulting in more foals by stallions that already get 200+ mares a year. Let's use Into Mischief in this scenario. In 2018 he covered 235 mares, with AI you take those 235 covers and multiple by 6-8 and that is the number of mares he could AI. The Jockey Club can not put restrictions on the number of foals by a stallion either, its restricting free trade. Allowing AI then starts to open the can of worms in terms of embryo transfer and multiple foals out of a mare in year, etc, etc, etc.

[Retrospectiv]

I've been lurking for a while after taking a (several year) hiatus from posting, but this is a subject near and dear to my heart. I totally concur with the original assessment. I feel like we are seeing the effect of bad breeding practices. The American thoroughbred industry needs to enact some standards for breeding stock. It used to be "breed the best to the best and hope for the best". Now, it seems like it's "breed a precocious but probably unsound stallion to whoever can pay the stud fee".

Realistically, this is not a new issue.

Raise A Native in the early 1960's..... 4 starts, 4 wins. Didn't race past 2.....

[Honor Code]

I blame the shift in breeding on breeding to sell instead of race. I bred to race. Now, I see all these KY farms offering incentives based on sales. Everything is sales and more sales. The industry pushed for bringing business men and women into the sport. Well, it worked. The downside is that they want a return on their investment and they want it fast. it is all about money. It is not about the love of the horse and the love of the sport. It's not about personal pride of breeding a top winner and passion and dedication. It's about breeding a sales topper. It's about how quickly can they get a return on their investment. Until we make the shift back to breeding to race, the breed will continue to suffer.

The stallions utilized will continue to be unsound, precocious horses with fantastic physicals. The Ghostzappers will prevail. The hard knocking, sound in wind and limb, and nice footed horses who run long and mature slow will continue to disappear. I don't know why there isn't more outrage. I am horrified at the state of affairs regarding breeding today and sad that so many breeders have chosen to focus on the sale horses. Sad. Very sad, indeed.

Horses are expensive. Horse Racing wasn't called the Sports of Kings for nothing. And today, people actually want returns in horse racing. The people who race horses as a hobby are in the minorities. When the Dupont's, Wrights and their ilk were racing horses, I can promise that racing was a continuous loss financially. Now, the stud market means people can actually earn some profit. The market now reflects the change in owners' expectations.

And as the market favours precocity, the races that attract owners are also the shorter ones for younger horses. There are many races that are no longer marquee races-and lo and behold, they're all the longer ones for older horses. The Lawerence Realization used to be 1.5 mi. The Woodward used to be 1.5mi. Whitney used to be 1.25mi. The Brooklyn Handicap only returned to being 1.5mi in 2008. But more importantly, no one aims their top horses at these races.

Unless the buyers decide they want to race for longevity and sport rather than financial return, the direction of the current market is by no means going to change. Complaining about the state of the sales and comparative fragility of the horses is putting the cart before the horse.

[WildAgainFan74]

In what world do Ghostzappers not run long and mature slow....? I kind of get your argument but he's a pretty terrible example. He's kind of the definition of being unpopular at the sales and having late bloomers. His top progeny are Shaman Ghost (broke his maiden March of his 3 y/o year, won Graded Stakes until he was 5), Moreno (broke maiden June of his 3 y/o year, won Graded Stakes until he was 5), Judy the Beauty (broke maiden in July of 2 y/o year, raced until she was 6, won Graded stakes until she was 5), Holy Helena (broke maiden April of 3 y/o year, is currently winning Graded Stakes as a 5 year old), Paulassilverlining (broke maiden in August of 3 y/o year, won Graded Stakes as a 5 year old), Better Lucky (broke maiden in December of 3/o year, won Graded Stakes as a 4 year old, GSP as a 5 year old).

But, go off I guess.

Ghostzapper is a terrible example. Agreed.

I stand by my Ghostzapper statement. I was talking about when he first entered stud. I'm not sure your ages or if you remember but there was a lot of debate at the time. Is a stallion that can only make 4 starts or less in an ENTIRE year a stallion that should go to stud? Should short lived brilliance be enough? That was the question. It was a question of soundness. The fact he became as popular as he did based on his horrific soundness and feet shows the problem. Yes, you might get winners but at what cost to the breed?

[WildAgainFan74]

I blame the shift in breeding on breeding to sell instead of race. I bred to race. Now, I see all these KY farms offering incentives based on sales. Everything is sales and more sales. The industry pushed for bringing business men and women into the sport. Well, it worked. The downside is that they want a return on their investment and they want it fast. it is all about money. It is not about the love of the horse and the love of the sport. It's not about personal pride of breeding a top winner and passion and dedication. It's about breeding a sales topper. It's about how quickly can they get a return on their investment. Until we make the shift back to breeding to race, the breed will continue to suffer.

The stallions utilized will continue to be unsound, precocious horses with fantastic physicals. The Ghostzappers will prevail. The hard knocking, sound in wind and limb, and nice footed horses who run long and mature slow will continue to disappear. I don't know why there isn't more outrage. I am horrified at the state of affairs regarding breeding today and sad that so many breeders have chosen to focus on the sale horses. Sad. Very sad, indeed.

Horses are expensive. Horse Racing wasn't called the Sports of Kings for nothing. And today, people actually want returns in horse racing. The people who race horses as a hobby are in the minorities. When the Dupont's, Wrights and their ilk were racing horses, I can promise that racing was a continuous loss financially. Now, the stud market means people can actually earn some profit. The market now reflects the change in owners' expectations.

And as the market favours precocity, the races that attract owners are also the shorter ones for younger horses. There are many races that are no longer marquee races-and lo and behold, they're all the longer ones for older horses. The Lawerence Realization used to be 1.5 mi. The Woodward used to be 1.5mi. Whitney used to be 1.25mi. The Brooklyn Handicap only returned to being 1.5mi in 2008. But more importantly, no one aims their top horses at these races.

Unless the buyers decide they want to race for longevity and sport rather than financial return, the direction of the current market is by no means going to change. Complaining about the state of the sales and comparative fragility of the horses is putting the cart before the horse.

I must, respectfully, disagree. Everything you wrote is not new to me as I was a breeder and raced. I have been involved in the breed for a very long time. However, my point is that there was a shift in marketing to businesspeople and new owners. The shift, at the time, was a HUGE push towards partnerships. It was no longer about the horse person or lover that got involved in racing. A lot of racing and breeding was a family generation thing and us small farms were the glue that held the industry together. Or, shall we say...us regional breeders on small farms. However, the push towards expensive partnerships caused the shift. These partnerships became massive and brought in new blood but also changed the parameters of racing and breeding and sales and not for the better. We have yet to recover.

What people don't understand is if we lose bloodlines because they are no longer in fashion than that's it. Once bloodlines are gone, they can never be brought back. If the industry continues to breed 4 career starters to 4 career starters because they make good sale horses than the breed will continue to decline. I have seen horses that were 3 or 4 crosses to Mr. Prospector now!

In terms of drugs, when they first allowed lasix they argued it would help increase field sizes and number of starts. But, both have gone down. the use of bute on raceday is just as bad. Trust me, I have seen it! I bet over 50% of current breeding horses couldn't race without drugs. It will certainly be interesting to see who can truly run without drugs and who can't. I think it should also be made public if a breeding horse had a severe deficiency in wind that required surgery but I doubt it will be. That would take out another 10% or so.

We are at the point now where breeding has backed us into a corner. Racing fans might not be concerned because they can still bet. But, breeders and lovers of the breed should be concerned.

[Honor Code]

I blame the shift in breeding on breeding to sell instead of race. I bred to race. Now, I see all these KY farms offering incentives based on sales. Everything is sales and more sales. The industry pushed for bringing business men and women into the sport. Well, it worked. The downside is that they want a return on their investment and they want it fast. it is all about money. It is not about the love of the horse and the love of the sport. It's not about personal pride of breeding a top winner and passion and dedication. It's about breeding a sales topper. It's about how quickly can they get a return on their investment. Until we make the shift back to breeding to race, the breed will continue to suffer.

The stallions utilized will continue to be unsound, precocious horses with fantastic physicals. The Ghostzappers will prevail. The hard knocking, sound in wind and limb, and nice footed horses who run long and mature slow will continue to disappear. I don't know why there isn't more outrage. I am horrified at the state of affairs regarding breeding today and sad that so many breeders have chosen to focus on the sale horses. Sad. Very sad, indeed.

Horses are expensive. Horse Racing wasn't called the Sports of Kings for nothing. And today, people actually want returns in horse racing. The people who race horses as a hobby are in the minorities. When the Dupont's, Wrights and their ilk were racing horses, I can promise that racing was a continuous loss financially. Now, the stud market means people can actually earn some profit. The market now reflects the change in owners' expectations.

And as the market favours precocity, the races that attract owners are also the shorter ones for younger horses. There are many races that are no longer marquee races-and lo and behold, they're all the longer ones for older horses. The Lawerence Realization used to be 1.5 mi. The Woodward used to be 1.5mi. Whitney used to be 1.25mi. The Brooklyn Handicap only returned to being 1.5mi in 2008. But more importantly, no one aims their top horses at these races.

Unless the buyers decide they want to race for longevity and sport rather than financial return, the direction of the current market is by no means going to change. Complaining about the state of the sales and comparative fragility of the horses is putting the cart before the horse.

I must, respectfully, disagree. Everything you wrote is not new to me as I was a breeder and raced. I have been involved in the breed for a very long time. However, my point is that there was a shift in marketing to businesspeople and new owners. The shift, at the time, was a HUGE push towards partnerships. It was no longer about the horse person or lover that got involved in racing. A lot of racing and breeding was a family generation thing and us small farms were the glue that held the industry together. Or, shall we say...us regional breeders on small farms. However, the push towards expensive partnerships caused the shift. These partnerships became massive and brought in new blood but also changed the parameters of racing and breeding and sales and not for the better. We have yet to recover.

What people don't understand is if we lose bloodlines because they are no longer in fashion than that's it. Once bloodlines are gone, they can never be brought back. If the industry continues to breed 4 career starters to 4 career starters because they make good sale horses than the breed will continue to decline. I have seen horses that were 3 or 4 crosses to Mr. Prospector now!

In terms of drugs, when they first allowed lasix they argued it would help increase field sizes and number of starts. But, both have gone down. the use of bute on raceday is just as bad. Trust me, I have seen it! I bet over 50% of current breeding horses couldn't race without drugs. It will certainly be interesting to see who can truly run without drugs and who can't. I think it should also be made public if a breeding horse had a severe deficiency in wind that required surgery but I doubt it will be. That would take out another 10% or so.

We are at the point now where breeding has backed us into a corner. Racing fans might not be concerned because they can still bet. But, breeders and lovers of the breed should be concerned.

What I wrote isn’t disagreeing with anything you’re saying. I do agree, on every part but most especially the bloodlines. The new owners and partnerships are more about the young horse races and the quick turn around to stud. These owners care about sales, and the money they can make with a young stud.

What I’m saying is that sales focus and this rampant inbreeding to fragile horses all stems from owners with a completely different sense of priorities. They’re not horse lovers so much as money and glory lovers. They don’t care about horses, so they actively pursue and buy horses that will yield quick results. This leads precisely to what you’re commenting on-breeding to fashionable fragile horses and the decline of racing and the breed in general.

For references, I’m a lover of the old lines too. My personal favorite lines that are essentially gone are Caro, Halo, Broad Brush and Spend a Buck. I don’t know if any American successors to any of these nice lines

[WildAgainFan74]

Honor Code,

“For references, I’m a lover of the old lines too. My personal favorite lines that are essentially gone are Caro, Halo, Broad Brush and Spend a Buck. I don’t know if any American successors to any of these nice lines”.

You have exquisite taste! I bred to Cozzene praying for a filly but got a colt (that I later gelded) instead. Loved the Halo line even though they could be total shitheads. My homebred Silent Name was a stakes winner but he was out of my Wild Again mare. Broad Brush will live on as a broodmare sire as will his son, Include. Spend a Bucks didn’t carry well either. I was hoping Einstein would do well but nope. Lite the Fuse was a decent regional stallion but is pensioned.

You picked some great horses. Those were the good old days....

[Flanders]

If the stallion line survives somewhere in the world there is always the possibility it could make a comeback in the US. I mean look at the Halo line. His line is surviving in the US, because Southern Halo was reverse shuttled to the US for a few seasons and sired More Than Ready while he stood here. Plus I would imagine WinStar plans to stand Yoshida so the Sunday Silence line should get another chance in the US. There was a point when it looked like the Crytoclearance line was done in the US but Candy Ride was imported and revitalized again. It just takes one good horse to revive a line. While the Spend A Buck line isn't really in the US anymore, Buckaroo still has a few representatives in Florida through his other son, Montbrook.

I've seen horses imported from Turkey and South Korea in the past couple years. Countries that buy the cast off stallions to improve their own breeding stock are the places that are going to keep a line alive.

[WildAgainFan74]

If the stallion line survives somewhere in the world there is always the possibility it could make a comeback in the US. I mean look at the Halo line. His line is surviving in the US, because Southern Halo was reverse shuttled to the US for a few seasons and sired More Than Ready while he stood here. Plus I would imagine WinStar plans to stand Yoshida so the Sunday Silence line should get another chance in the US. There was a point when it looked like the Crytoclearance line was done in the US but Candy Ride was imported and revitalized again. It just takes one good horse to revive a line.

I've seen horses imported from Turkey and South Korea in the past couple years. Countries that buy the cast off stallions to improve their own breeding stock are the places that are going to keep a line alive.

Excellent points. I loved Southern Halo.