New Conformation Photos

[Miss Woodford]

Cupid looks like a show pony.

He is 16.3 hands. Their website says 16.0 1/2, but one of the booking guys quoted 16.3 as his actual height. They always seem to fudge. Uncle Mo is advertised as 16.3 and he's more like 17.0 1/2 or 17.1.

I don't think Miss Woodford was referencing his height, just the fact he looks like a fancy show horse

Yes, that's what I meant. He has a lovely refined head that reminds me of a Welsh pony.

[Miss Woodford]

Storm the Stars is stunning. Berkshire is quite attractive, and showing a lot of his Arabian forefathers' looks.
If Europe is facing a Sadler's Wells (Northern Dancer) - Danehill (Danzig/Northern Dancer) bottleneck, are there some American stallions who would be a healthy outcross? Or is there just no getting away from Northern Dancer?

Stallions from the A.P. Indy, Sunday Silence and Tiznow lines would be their best bet; right now the Mr. Prospector line is their main "outcross". But we also have representatives of Caro, Roberto, Minnesota Mac, Southern Halo, Blushing Groom, Broad Brush, and Damascus, among others. Some lines are hanging on by just one or two popular stallions, but there is far more genetic diversity to be found in the US than in Europe or Japan.

[mariasmon]

He is 16.3 hands. Their website says 16.0 1/2, but one of the booking guys quoted 16.3 as his actual height. They always seem to fudge. Uncle Mo is advertised as 16.3 and he's more like 17.0 1/2 or 17.1.

I don't think Miss Woodford was referencing his height, just the fact he looks like a fancy show horse

Yes, that's what I meant. He has a lovely refined head that reminds me of a Welsh pony.

True. He is a lovely individual.

[Flanders]

Storm the Stars is stunning. Berkshire is quite attractive, and showing a lot of his Arabian forefathers' looks.
If Europe is facing a Sadler's Wells (Northern Dancer) - Danehill (Danzig/Northern Dancer) bottleneck, are there some American stallions who would be a healthy outcross? Or is there just no getting away from Northern Dancer?

I don't think there is any way of getting away from Northern Dancer. I looked at the Top 25 European stallions this year and top 50 last year. The vast majority are inbred to Northern Dancer in their first 5 generations. They do have some stallions from other sire lines, though again the vast majority are ND sireline. I did find an In Reality sireline stallion in the top 50 last year but he has Sadler's Wells in his 3rd generation. Anyway here are the ones that are free of Danzig/Danehill/Sadler's Wells and still alive, a few others would make the list.

Dubawi - ND 4x5 (Mr. Prospector sire line)
Shamardal - 4 ND
Lope de Vega - 5 ND
Iffraaj - 3x4 ND - (Mr. Prospector sire line)
Dark Angel - 4x5 ND
Deportivo - 2x4 ND

From the 2017 European Leading Sires:
Acclamation - ND 4
Footstepsinthesand - ND 4x5
Raven's Pass - ND 4 (Mr. Prospector sire line)
Le Havre - ND 3 (Blushing Groom sire line)
Dutch Art - ND 4 (Mr. Prospector sire line)

[Ridan_Remembered]

Storm the Stars is stunning. Berkshire is quite attractive, and showing a lot of his Arabian forefathers' looks.
If Europe is facing a Sadler's Wells (Northern Dancer) - Danehill (Danzig/Northern Dancer) bottleneck, are there some American stallions who would be a healthy outcross? Or is there just no getting away from Northern Dancer?

Stallions from the A.P. Indy, Sunday Silence and Tiznow lines would be their best bet; right now the Mr. Prospector line is their main "outcross". But we also have representatives of Caro, Roberto, Minnesota Mac, Southern Halo, Blushing Groom, Broad Brush, and Damascus, among others. Some lines are hanging on by just one or two popular stallions, but there is far more genetic diversity to be found in the US than in Europe or Japan.

I think Germany also offers diversity for the heavy concentration of Northern Dancer/Mr. Prospector found in UK, Ireland and France.

[ThreeMustangs]

Storm the Stars is stunning. Berkshire is quite attractive, and showing a lot of his Arabian forefathers' looks.
If Europe is facing a Sadler's Wells (Northern Dancer) - Danehill (Danzig/Northern Dancer) bottleneck, are there some American stallions who would be a healthy outcross? Or is there just no getting away from Northern Dancer?

Coolmore are starting to use Deep Impact and it’s paid off nicely with Saxon Warrior. Think of all the Galileo and Danehill-line mares they have to find matches for...

[Treve]

Are there, worldwide stallions of each of the three founding sirelines still standing at stud/active? I thought the breed as a whole seemed to have neglected the Byerley line with most stallions either direct male descendants of the Godolphin and Darley lines.
I wonder how much real genetic diversity is left in the breed as a whole, I think if we went by DNA genotyping the breed would be far more inbred than even just going by pedigree.

[BaroqueAgain1]

Thanks for your answers, everyone. I love learning more pedigree stuff.

[ThreeMustangs]

Are there, worldwide stallions of each of the three founding sirelines still standing at stud/active? I thought the breed as a whole seemed to have neglected the Byerley line with most stallions either direct male descendants of the Godolphin and Darley lines.
I wonder how much real genetic diversity is left in the breed as a whole, I think if we went by DNA genotyping the breed would be far more inbred than even just going by pedigree.

If I counted right, Justify has TEN crosses of Native Dancer. Doesn’t that seem like a lot?

[Miss Woodford]

Are there, worldwide stallions of each of the three founding sirelines still standing at stud/active? I thought the breed as a whole seemed to have neglected the Byerley line with most stallions either direct male descendants of the Godolphin and Darley lines.
I wonder how much real genetic diversity is left in the breed as a whole, I think if we went by DNA genotyping the breed would be far more inbred than even just going by pedigree.

Descendents of In Reality are the only active tail-male stallions to the Godolphin Arabian. Tiznow is responsible for ensuring that line's survival in the future.

The Byerley Turk's situation is far more precarious, as Indian Ridge was highly successful (nearly on par with Sadler's Wells and Danehill) yet his sons have *not* been popular in the breeding shed. The best hope is grandson Dunaden, who covered 99 mares in his first season at stud (2015).
The only active tail-male stallion from the Byerley Turk's line that is not a son/grandson of Indian Ridge is T F Classic Twist (Triple Twist), standing in South Carolina as a sporthorse sire, but his owner stated on Facebook last week that he is going to be gelded because he was acting studdish around a mare in heat while schooling eventing. No comment on that.

[Flanders]

Are there, worldwide stallions of each of the three founding sirelines still standing at stud/active? I thought the breed as a whole seemed to have neglected the Byerley line with most stallions either direct male descendants of the Godolphin and Darley lines.
I wonder how much real genetic diversity is left in the breed as a whole, I think if we went by DNA genotyping the breed would be far more inbred than even just going by pedigree.

If I counted right, Justify has TEN crosses of Native Dancer. Doesn’t that seem like a lot?

Of course it seems like a lot but there are no true outcrosses anymore or at least none that anyone would use. I would imagine it is close to impossible to find a horse that doesn't have either Mr. Prospector or Northern Dancer in its pedigree somewhere.

[Miss Woodford]

Are there, worldwide stallions of each of the three founding sirelines still standing at stud/active? I thought the breed as a whole seemed to have neglected the Byerley line with most stallions either direct male descendants of the Godolphin and Darley lines.
I wonder how much real genetic diversity is left in the breed as a whole, I think if we went by DNA genotyping the breed would be far more inbred than even just going by pedigree.

If I counted right, Justify has TEN crosses of Native Dancer. Doesn’t that seem like a lot?

Of course it seems like a lot but there are no true outcrosses anymore or at least none that anyone would use. I would imagine it is close to impossible to find a horse that doesn't have either Mr. Prospector or Northern Dancer in its pedigree somewhere.

Manhattan Cafe, Tagula, Mizzen Mast, Aikenite, Skipshot, Musketier, Network, Lauro, Balko, Robin des Champs, among many others.

[Flanders]

If I counted right, Justify has TEN crosses of Native Dancer. Doesn’t that seem like a lot?

Of course it seems like a lot but there are no true outcrosses anymore or at least none that anyone would use. I would imagine it is close to impossible to find a horse that doesn't have either Mr. Prospector or Northern Dancer in its pedigree somewhere.

Manhattan Cafe, Tagula, Mizzen Mast, Aikenite, Skipshot, Musketier, Network, Lauro, Balko, Robin des Champs, among many others.

Ok so from your list there is one US based stallion that people actually use, Mizzen Mast. But he is 20 years old and has no heir apparent as his 3 sons at stud have zero stakes winners between them.
Manhattan Cafe was the only other one of that list that was successful, he stood in Japan and died in 2015. I think the rest of them have 1 stakes winner amongst them. That was what I meant by or at least none that anyone would use. Breeders flock to the hot lines and when someone, for example Calumet, tries to bring in outcross stallions breeders don't use them. If there are outcrosses and no one uses them, its pointless.

[Treve]

It's the result of breeding for sales almost becoming its own business, I'm guessing. Using outcrosses at this point has to be a long term plan that has no quick return.
(And that's not exactly new or anything, but I suppose that's the long term impact of racing becoming a real business rather than just primarily a hobby for the rich and noble).

[tachyon]

Are there, worldwide stallions of each of the three founding sirelines still standing at stud/active? I thought the breed as a whole seemed to have neglected the Byerley line with most stallions either direct male descendants of the Godolphin and Darley lines.
I wonder how much real genetic diversity is left in the breed as a whole, I think if we went by DNA genotyping the breed would be far more inbred than even just going by pedigree.

If I counted right, Justify has TEN crosses of Native Dancer. Doesn’t that seem like a lot?

Of course it seems like a lot but there are no true outcrosses anymore or at least none that anyone would use. I would imagine it is close to impossible to find a horse that doesn't have either Mr. Prospector or Northern Dancer in its pedigree somewhere.

Hat Trick(JPN)

http://www.pedigreequery.com/hat+trick6

[Miss Woodford]

Of course it seems like a lot but there are no true outcrosses anymore or at least none that anyone would use. I would imagine it is close to impossible to find a horse that doesn't have either Mr. Prospector or Northern Dancer in its pedigree somewhere.

Manhattan Cafe, Tagula, Mizzen Mast, Aikenite, Skipshot, Musketier, Network, Lauro, Balko, Robin des Champs, among many others.

Ok so from your list there is one US based stallion that people actually use, Mizzen Mast. But he is 20 years old and has no heir apparent as his 3 sons at stud have zero stakes winners between them.
Manhattan Cafe was the only other one of that list that was successful, he stood in Japan and died in 2015. I think the rest of them have 1 stakes winner amongst them. That was what I meant by or at least none that anyone would use. Breeders flock to the hot lines and when someone, for example Calumet, tries to bring in outcross stallions breeders don't use them. If there are outcrosses and no one uses them, its pointless.

Tagula has in fact been on the leading sire lists in the UK & Ireland multiple times, he sired champions Canford Cliffs and Limato.
Network is a top sire of steeplechasers, including the legendary Sprinter Sacre, and has a young stallion son in France named Voiladenuo who has covered more than 80 mares in his first two seasons at stud
Balko is also a popular jumps sire in France and has sired G1 winners Balko des Flos and Gitane du Berlais.
Robin des Champs, a leading NH stallion in the UK & Ireland, sired the great champion mare Quevega and several other G1 winners over jumps. His most promising stallion son in Cokoriko, who covered 124 mares last season.
Robin des Champs also has IMO the ideal Thoroughbred conformation


Bottom line: yes there are still stallions from outcross pedigrees, they're just mostly used to produce stayers and steeplechasers so they are ignored by American breeders and by the "big" stud farms.

[Treve]

He's gorgeous.

[BaroqueAgain1]

You're right, Miss W. RdC looks perfect, right down to the one lucky white foot.
With his little star, that's about as much white as I like to see on a horse.
Beautiful, fine head, long elegant neck, strong body, clean legs (that I can see) and he's so dappled, even his dapples have dapples.

[Ridan_Remembered]

Robin des Champs is stunning. If I was wealthy, I'd experiment with breeding some fast American mares to him, but such will never the the case except in my fantasies.

[Treve]

He has a similarly well balanced and perfectly constructed confo to American Pharoah who remains one of my favourite physical specimens.
Main difference is Robin des Champs has a prettier neck, it being longer gives him a very elegant and regal head set.