Overpriced Stallions

Quiet Chris · Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:45 am

Can anyone explain who is paying $200K for War Front? This horse has produced little to nothing this year and if you look at his career he has produced a few very good horses but nothing like a $200K stallion should have produced. I understand the fee has to do with how well his sons and daughters sell, but who is paying so much for these horses. They aren't exactly world beaters and he gets some great mares.

Flanders · Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:10 pm

Every breeder who can get in to him pays it because Coolmore tries to buy all his foals. He has gotten 12 SW this year, has 10% SWs to foals, and gets precocious 2yos. I don't know about this crop of 2yos but past crops most have gone to Europe. This number is going to rise as Coolmore mares were like half his book this year. He hasn't gotten any G1SWs this year but it could change anytime as he has 4 GSWing juveniles in Europe. He isn't overpriced if his book fills and his foals sell extremely well.

Quiet Chris · Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:46 pm

Well maybe Coolmore is overpaying because Departing, The Factor, Summer Front, Lines of Battle and Declaration of War do not make a $200K stallion considering he has been at stud for nearly a decade.

Him and Giants Causeway are ridiculously overpriced for what they have produced.

Izvestia · Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:00 pm

You must be talking about the "other" Giants Causeway and War Front.
The 2 I am familiar with have more than proven their worth.

Admin · Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:43 pm

War Front is grossly overpriced and I've been saying this for years. He's a $100k stallion, which makes him a heavy-hitter at that price, but overpriced at $200k and $300k that breeders will pay for him. Because of limited seasons, people act as if they hit the lottery and overpay to get to him.

It'll be interesting to see if he starts cooling. He's solidified as a turf sure now so that limits his appeal to American buyers. In addition, I read an article a couple weeks ago which said the turfers sent to Europe are firing early but not running on as 3 and older horses. In a few years we'll see if he's a side of sires or not, and his appeal will rise or fall accordingly.

I hated to see Grace go to him. I believe in breeding like to like, and she was dirt while he's a turf sire. Zenyatta made more sense as she had the running style and ability on synthetic to make me think she could've been equally good on turf.

Horsebagger · Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:06 pm

As for War Front, I'm with V. If he doesn't have another big horse or two next year, his yearlings won't continue to sell for half a mil a pop. And that likely means his fee will have to go down. It's all supply and demand, and Claiborne has always limited his book and kept him hard to get to no matter the fee, which helps prop up the fee.

Anyone questioning the stallion work of Giants Causeway found himself in the wrong thread and is clearly lost.

Mel Mae · Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:24 pm

I think War Front is probably going to start hitting big in the next few years. His early good runners were out of good mares but nothing like Coolmore has been sending him. They didn't start their heavy support of him until about 2013 (and more 2014/2015, ect) and we're seeing a decent amount of 2yos doing well by him now. The problem for breeders is that with Coolmore sending him so many mares (I believe he got around 35 of their mares this year), they aren't going to be as big of hitters at the sales when it comes to his foals because they'll have so many. The good news for buyers is that it seems like they send the "lesser" War Front colts and a lot of the fillies through the ring (Roly Poly was one but was an RNA) so they may be able to get nice horses without having to battle against Coolmore.

Vandalay · Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:07 pm

I nominate Super Saver,..He's $65K and being outperformed on the 3rd crop list by stallions that are a fraction of his fee

Retrospectiv · Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:42 pm

Agreed on all fronts on War Front.
We already knew he got some good 2yr olds.....but they don't seem to train on at all. With the improved mares I'd be wanting to see some hitters as 3 and 4yr olds for sure.

I just can't knock Giant's Causeway. His books have been far from selective many years and he's still always managed to stay near the top of the sires lists.

Life At Zen · Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:11 pm

Retrospectiv wrote:
I just can't knock Giant's Causeway. His books have been far from selective many years and he's still always managed to stay near the top of the sires lists.

Yeah, there's a reason he has his own statue.

As the saying goes, "they're not overpriced if they fill their book." That said, American Pharoah was overpriced this year. Pretty sure they had to do some bargaining to fill his book.

Mel Mae · Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:26 pm

Giant's Causeway may not be a flashy stallion like the Tapits and Galileos of the world but he's definitely not overpriced. You have a live shot of getting a good horse every time you breed to him and he seems to always have live horses in the stakes ranks.

BaroqueAgain1 · Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:25 pm

On the subject of War Front:
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/ ... ype-winner

Some of the comments seem to back the opinion that he may be overpriced, especially for a US-based stallion. I like the comparison to Freud, who also just had his 50th black-type winner, but who stands for one twentieth the cost of War Front.

Starine · Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:30 pm

Vandalay wrote:I nominate Super Saver,..He's $65K and being outperformed on the 3rd crop list by stallions that are a fraction of his fee

Dang. I didn't realize he was standing for that much.

Acadiana · Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:44 pm

Vandalay wrote:I nominate Super Saver,..He's $65K and being outperformed on the 3rd crop list by stallions that are a fraction of his fee

I agree. You can go to Tiznow for less at the same farm

Miss Woodford · Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:21 pm

BaroqueAgain1 wrote:On the subject of War Front:
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/ ... ype-winner

Some of the comments seem to back the opinion that he may be overpriced, especially for a US-based stallion. I like the comparison to Freud, who also just had his 50th black-type winner, but who stands for one twentieth the cost of War Front.

War Front is #30 on the leading sire list, between Northern Afleet ($6,500) and Bluegrass Cat ($7,500).

Somnambulist · Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:44 pm

For the longest time I thought Bernardini was, but I've sort of come around.

Northport · Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:07 pm

Somnambulist wrote:For the longest time I thought Bernardini was, but I've sort of come around.

Meh, I still think he was for 2012-2014. He got bumped from $75,000 in 2011 to $150,000 for 2012/2013 and then cooled wayyyyy down, but only got a drop to $100,000 in 2014

Horsebagger · Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:27 am

Northport wrote:
Somnambulist wrote:For the longest time I thought Bernardini was, but I've sort of come around.
Meh, I still think he was for 2012-2014. He got bumped from $75,000 in 2011 to $150,000 for 2012/2013 and then cooled wayyyyy down, but only got a drop to $100,000 in 2014

He's (in my opinion) back to a more appropriate level now, and will likely use him this coming winter after having struck out a couple times (struck out = being outbid) trying to buy a yearling filly by him the past two years. Despite having some strong success with his offspring on the track, I continue to believe his greatest breeding impact will be as a broodmare sire.

Insane Crazy · Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:19 am

Horsebagger wrote:
Northport wrote:
Somnambulist wrote:For the longest time I thought Bernardini was, but I've sort of come around.
Meh, I still think he was for 2012-2014. He got bumped from $75,000 in 2011 to $150,000 for 2012/2013 and then cooled wayyyyy down, but only got a drop to $100,000 in 2014
He's (in my opinion) back to a more appropriate level now, and will likely use him this coming winter after having struck out a couple times (struck out = being outbid) trying to buy a yearling filly by him the past two years. Despite having some strong success with his offspring on the track, I continue to believe his greatest breeding impact will be as a broodmare sire.

Just curious, is there any particular reason for that? I've a soft spot for stallions whose legacy is stamped through their daughters, so I'm interested to hear your perspective.

Horsebagger · Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:53 pm

Insane Crazy wrote: Just curious, is there any particular reason for that? I've a soft spot for stallions whose legacy is stamped through their daughters, so I'm interested to hear your perspective.

I guess I would start out by saying he's got blue blood throughout, yet with a pedigree lacking in many modern day thoroughbred crosses typically found in our population here in the US. (i.e...No Storm Cat, primarily). His fillies are unlikely to be overburdened with multiple crosses too far up in their pedigree that will potentially prove more difficult to cross with their prospective stallions in future generations.