Lack of top outcross sires

racingfan · Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:13 am

Ridan, my friend- we think alike! I bred to Raffie's Majesty before he was exported simply for that reason!

Yes, Alphabet Soup is around but not a top sire by any stretch of the imagination. His Apex is shockingly horrendous (.78)- not even the National average for the backyard stallion. Getting an occasional good horse, does not make one a great sire! I had high hopes for him as well. Visited him twice to inspect for breeding. I had bred to his Sire Cozzene and was partial to the line.

I, too, like Einstein despite the northern Dancer. But, the Spend a Buck line has struggled as I am not sure we have a compatible mare base here. I just don't know the reason but I LOVE this line. I was hoping Silver Charm, Lite the fuse, Montbrook, or Silver Buck would carry the line on a National level but all ended up in regional programs or exported. I don't believe any were able to stand in KY for any length of time. I know Adena tried to carry Lite the Fuse at the beginning. However, just because a stallion is regional based does not mean he is not a good stallion for a local breeding program…I have bred to regional stallions but I also adjusted my expectations accordingly.

But, I was talking about the game changer outcross stallions that CONSISTENTLY sire horses who win at the highest level and who remain Nationally ranked as Leading Sires. There is just a huge void right now when you look at the stallions I listed as no longer being available for breeding.

Ridan_Remembered · Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:50 pm

racingfan wrote:Ridan, my friend- we think alike! I bred to Raffie's Majesty before he was exported simply for that reason!

Raffie's Majesty has what might be termed an old-fashioned pedigree in that it is a stayer's pedigree. I don't know anything about his female line, and do prefer stallions with top producing mares somewhere in their first four generations. Flower Bowl is one such mare, having produced His Majesty, Graustark and Bowl of Flowers from only five foals. But if a breeder had the money and time to take the long view with a stallion like this, his stayer's genes could pay dividends a couple of generations in the future. Unfortunately, few breeders do take such a long view with their breeding stock anymore. Few can afford to do so.

halo · Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:29 pm

Ridan_Remembered wrote:If you can afford to send a mare to him, and can wait until he returns to Kentucky, Animal Kingdom could be a really good choice for an outcross, even though he isn't a proven stud yet. He does have Northern Dancer twice in his 5th generation, but that would be pushed back to the 6th generation in his foals.

Tiznow has Northern Dancer 4x4 in his pedigree, but that pushes back to 5x5 in his foals.

Another stallion who would make a good outcross for any mare with Northern Dancer and/or Mr. Prospector/Raise a Native pedigrees is Friesan Fire. Unfortunately, he's at a small farm (where Malibu Moon started his stud career), and might never have the chance to rise in the stallion ranks. And he isn't a proven stud, as his first foals were born this year.

Hat Trick would be a good choice.

Of course, a lot depends on what you could afford, how far you could ship your mare, the mare's own characteristics, etc. Here's a BloodHorse article from 2008 on this very subject that might be of some help to you: http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/scot/arc ... ymore.aspx Lots of good ideas in the comments section of this article.

If money was no object, I'd look for the best possible German stallion. The Germans breed good horses, and they are outcrosses to almost all the fashionable bloodlines in England, Ireland and here.

Im sure Country Life would be thrilled that you consider them a "small" farm.

Ridan_Remembered · Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:47 pm

halo wrote:Im sure Country Life would be thrilled that you consider them a "small" farm.

What is it with people who bypass a really good discussion and, instead, take one statement and turn it into some personalized snark?

Country Life is a small farm when compared to the big operations in Kentucky, for example. The adjective "small" in this context in no way disrespects Country Life. It is merely a comparative description.

halo · Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:57 am

Personalized snark? You are the one who said Unfortunately, he's at a small farm (where Malibu Moon started his stud career), and might never have the chance to rise in the stallion ranks. Who do you think made Malibu Moon? Who do you think made Allans Prospect? Who do you think made Carnivalay? Im not snarking, Im merely correcting a major error on your part. You make it sound like he's at some backyard farm who have no clue how to make a stallion. Malibu Moon's highest percentages of stakes winners per crop came with those early Maryland crops. Theres very very few farms in Kentucky with the history and success that Country Life has had.

racingfan · Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:10 am

Agree with Ridan. Country Life is a small farm compared to Claiborne, Winstar, Lane's end, etc. . They got lucky with Malibu Moon and, other than him, in recent times, have had nothing but Regional level stallions. It is ALWAYS much harder for regional stallions to get the top level support to make them National Leading Sires WITH high APEX numbers- which, incidentally, is what the original discussion was about…..

Let's face it….most top stallions start at KY farms. Yes, there are exceptions that breed their way to KY but that is not the rule. The discussion was about National Leading Sires on the General Sire list who CONSISTENTLY (not every now and then) sire horses who can compete at the highest level of graded stakes competition.

On another note, I strongly believe that people don't make stallions…stallions make themselves.

pointgivenfan · Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:36 am

racingfan wrote:On another note, I strongly believe that people don't make stallions…stallions make themselves.

Please explain.

Ridan_Remembered · Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:38 am

halo wrote:You make it sound like he's at some backyard farm who have no clue how to make a stallion.

That is what YOU read into what I posted. It is not even remotely what I said or meant. It really is helpful on these internet forums (where we do not have tone of voice and body language to help us interpret what someone says) to make allowances for the fact that every individual expresses themselves differently.

The only reason I even know Country Life exists is because Friesan Fire was sent to stud there. I'm a fan of that horse and, ever since his rough trip in the Derby, have worried about his well-being and his future. Far from disrespecting that farm, I'm hoping with all my heart that they can do for Fire what they did for Malibu Moon. Do you think it's by chance that I know MM started his stud career at a farm I had never heard of until Fire went to stud there?

Even if Fire only became a good regional sire and lived out his life on that farm, I would be happy. I'm grateful he's at Country Life, and just don't want to see him shuffled from place to place and lose track of him. I love that horse. Heck, he's even the reason I found this forum. I looked for news of him on Rick Porter's old forum a few years ago and learned about this forum from there. Trust me...as long as Fire is on that farm, I'm that farm's biggest fan. You have no idea.

TBird · Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:29 pm

Ridan_Remembered wrote:
halo wrote:You make it sound like he's at some backyard farm who have no clue how to make a stallion.
That is what YOU read into what I posted. It is not even remotely what I said or meant. It really is helpful on these internet forums (where we do not have tone of voice and body language to help us interpret what someone says) to make allowances for the fact that every individual expresses themselves differently.

The only reason I even know Country Life exists is because Friesan Fire was sent to stud there. I'm a fan of that horse and, ever since his rough trip in the Derby, have worried about his well-being and his future. Far from disrespecting that farm, I'm hoping with all my heart that they can do for Fire what they did for Malibu Moon. Do you think it's by chance that I know MM started his stud career at a farm I had never heard of until Fire went to stud there?

Even if Fire only became a good regional sire and lived out his life on that farm, I would be happy. I'm grateful he's at Country Life, and just don't want to see him shuffled from place to place and lose track of him. I love that horse. Heck, he's even the reason I found this forum. I looked for news of him on Rick Porter's old forum a few years ago and learned about this forum from there. Trust me...as long as Fire is on that farm, I'm that farm's biggest fan. You have no idea.

Not to beat a dead horse, or derail the thread, but I too read your initial comments about Country Life as derrogatory--especially in light of their accomplishments in their regional market and beyond. The fact that someone isn't aware of a farm's existence doesn't make it either small or unimportant. Nor in this case does it detract from a stallion's chances of succeeding. There are many successful stallions who didn't make their start in Kentucky and Country Life makes a very good launching pad.

halo · Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:47 pm

Ridan_Remembered wrote:
halo wrote:You make it sound like he's at some backyard farm who have no clue how to make a stallion.
That is what YOU read into what I posted. It is not even remotely what I said or meant. It really is helpful on these internet forums (where we do not have tone of voice and body language to help us interpret what someone says) to make allowances for the fact that every individual expresses themselves differently.

The only reason I even know Country Life exists is because Friesan Fire was sent to stud there. I'm a fan of that horse and, ever since his rough trip in the Derby, have worried about his well-being and his future. Far from disrespecting that farm, I'm hoping with all my heart that they can do for Fire what they did for Malibu Moon. Do you think it's by chance that I know MM started his stud career at a farm I had never heard of until Fire went to stud there?

Even if Fire only became a good regional sire and lived out his life on that farm, I would be happy. I'm grateful he's at Country Life, and just don't want to see him shuffled from place to place and lose track of him. I love that horse. Heck, he's even the reason I found this forum. I looked for news of him on Rick Porter's old forum a few years ago and learned about this forum from there. Trust me...as long as Fire is on that farm, I'm that farm's biggest fan. You have no idea.

You said Unfortunately, he's at a small farm (where Malibu Moon started his stud career), and might never have the chance to rise in the stallion ranks. I see nothing in that where you say that Country Life has been in business for longer than you've been alive. Claiborne in Kentucky is the only farm right now that is even remotely the same. In case you dont know, the breeding industry didnt start in 2000.

I dont know if its by chance or not that you never heard of Country Life. I would call it ignorance. Its quite a shame that being so interested in thoughbreds, you have chosen to total close your eyes to any history of the breed....even close history. Because if you didnt, you would be privy to some of the most fascinating stories ever told.

And for racingfan to say most top stallions started in Kentucky, again sadly ignorant. The vast majority of the breed shapers of the past 50 years either started in states other than Kentucky, or never even stood there.

You are missing out on a lot by closing your eyes to thoroughbred history. There is nothing more fascinating to see where our horses of today came from.

Somnambulist · Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:05 pm

halo wrote:I dont know if its by chance or not that you never heard of Country Life. I would call it ignorance. Its quite a shame that being so interested in thoughbreds, you have chosen to total close your eyes to any history of the breed....even close history. Because if you didnt, you would be privy to some of the most fascinating stories ever told.

What about your overly contemptous comments in this thread would inspire a passion for learning, exactly?

Allspice · Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:26 pm

TBird wrote:Not to beat a dead horse, or derail the thread, but I too read your initial comments about Country Life as derrogatory--especially in light of their accomplishments in their regional market and beyond. The fact that someone isn't aware of a farm's existence doesn't make it either small or unimportant. Nor in this case does it detract from a stallion's chances of succeeding. There are many successful stallions who didn't make their start in Kentucky and Country Life makes a very good launching pad.

Agreed.
I knew they have been in business a long time, I wasn't aware of how long though. I first heard of them over a decade ago when they still had Allen's Prospect, Citidancer, Carnivalay and Malibu Moon, but they've been around since the '30s. They stood Saggy, aka "that horse that beat Citation when he was three" and the sire of Carry Back. I wasn't aware they had such a profound impact on the breed either. They bred Raise You, the dam of Raise a Native. So they are one of the ones to thank for Mr. Prospector. Ironic, considering what this thread is about. XD

EDIT: Oh, while we are on the topic of successful stallions who didn't start in Kentucky...Mr. Prospector was one of them. He started in Florida. Actually, the other stallion this thread is about, Northern Dancer, never stood in Kentucky. He stood in Canada and then was moved to...the state Country Life operates out of. Maryland.

Pronzini · Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:23 am

racingfan wrote:
On another note, I strongly believe that people don't make stallions…stallions make themselves.

And I strongly believe that the opposite is true. Almost without exception, the stallions which seemingly come out of nowhere had proactive owners/managers ready to do the heavy lifting of investing in mares and racing their own if necessary. Kitten's Joy is a good example currently as is the regional stallion Square Eddie. There are others I can think of not the least of which were Storm Cat and Danzig. The stallions that tend to end up overseas are the ones bred to 100 plus outside mares until the music stops commercially and the last thing sold is the horse himself.

racingfan · Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:30 pm

Pronz..we will have to agree to disagree!!!

The list of top stallions who started off Regionally and bred crap mares, yet, still bred their way to KY will be too great to list. They were not "made" by anyone investing anything in them..which is why they started off breeding shit mares for pennies on the dollar. Think Mr Prospector, Kris S, Dynaformer, I can't possibly list them all.

Instead, you have tons of stallions that are "supported" by investors at Big Farms and guess what….they are out of KY, sold, or exported within years. That is the RULE not the exception. You know why….just because you breed a stallion to the best mares on the planet does not mean he will sire anything quality. Why? Because, stallions make themselves. They either have it or they don't and all the wishing and "mare management in the world" won't change that.

Allspice · Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:18 pm

racingfan wrote:Pronz..we will have to agree to disagree!!!

The list of top stallions who started off Regionally and bred crap mares, yet, still bred their way to KY will be too great to list. They were not "made" by anyone investing anything in them..which is why they started off breeding shit mares for pennies on the dollar. Think Mr Prospector, Kris S, Dynaformer, I can't possibly list them all.

Instead, you have tons of stallions that are "supported" by investors at Big Farms and guess what….they are out of KY, sold, or exported within years. That is the RULE not the exception. You know why….just because you breed a stallion to the best mares on the planet does not mean he will sire anything quality. Why? Because, stallions make themselves. They either have it or they don't and all the wishing and "mare management in the world" won't change that.

I think it's both. You can't make a stallion be something he's not, but they do need support to show how good they are. Sometimes it's up to the owner to prove he's worth breeding to, breeding their own mares to him and racing the foals. In that case, it is the owner making the stallion purely because very few others, if any at all, would give him a chance.