Photos of Tapit as a youngster?

Insane Crazy · Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:40 pm

I've scoured Google and am still coming up short. Are there any photos out there of Tapit as a foal/yearling? Or even a short two year old? The earliest footage I can find is his maiden race.

I'm just curious about what's under all that white. He grayed out so fast that it's hard to find a shot of him where you can see the real outlines of his leg markings.

BlindLucky · Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:50 pm

Well, he was hip 375 in the 2002 Keeneland September Yearling Sale, if that helps any leads. I've looked myself, and never found anything. You'd think there might be at least a shot of him in the ring, but that was before they streamed sales I'm sure.

Insane Crazy · Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:51 pm

BlindLucky wrote:Well, he was hip 375 in the 2002 Keeneland September Yearling Sale, if that helps any leads. I've looked myself, and never found anything. You'd think there might be at least a shot of him in the ring, but that was before they streamed sales I'm sure.

This was just what I was coming here to post. It seems almost impossible that a colt who went for upper six figures didn't get a photograph in the barns or in the ring. I'm gonna find him if it's the last thing I do.

Rainyday · Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:25 pm

Insane Crazy wrote:I've scoured Google and am still coming up short. Are there any photos out there of Tapit as a foal/yearling? Or even a short two year old? The earliest footage I can find is his maiden race.

I'm just curious about what's under all that white. He grayed out so fast that it's hard to find a shot of him where you can see the real outlines of his leg markings.

I want to believe, from the foals he's sired, that his inner horse is a really flashy chestnut. (I have no proof, though, and all you need to find is a bay foal he's sired out of a chestnut mare to collapse my theory to bits.)

Flanders · Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:40 am

Rainyday wrote:
Insane Crazy wrote:I've scoured Google and am still coming up short. Are there any photos out there of Tapit as a foal/yearling? Or even a short two year old? The earliest footage I can find is his maiden race.

I'm just curious about what's under all that white. He grayed out so fast that it's hard to find a shot of him where you can see the real outlines of his leg markings.
I want to believe, from the foals he's sired, that his inner horse is a really flashy chestnut. (I have no proof, though, and all you need to find is a bay foal he's sired out of a chestnut mare to collapse my theory to bits.)

He has to be chestnut. He hasn't, to my knowledge, sired any bays out of anything but bay mares.

BlindLucky · Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:39 pm

Flanders wrote: He has to be chestnut. He hasn't, to my knowledge, sired any bays out of anything but bay mares.

He's sired bays out of grey mares (A P Time, Code of Conduct, etc.), or are you looking for bays out of chestnuts only? I don't really know exactly how that works

Insane Crazy · Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:57 pm

BlindLucky wrote:
Flanders wrote: He has to be chestnut. He hasn't, to my knowledge, sired any bays out of anything but bay mares.
He's sired bays out of grey mares (A P Time, Code of Conduct, etc.), or are you looking for bays out of chestnuts only? I don't really know exactly how that works

Grey covers up the base color (in TBs, generally black, chestnut, or bay -- which is itself black + the agouti gene), so a grey mare still has say in the genetic makeup of her kiddos even if they don't inherit the grey gene.

So we'd be looking for whether those grey mares were bay or chestnut before they greyed out. My money is on them being bays, though as we've demonstrated with Tapit...if someone didn't write it down, we can never be sure.

But since it *seems* that he can't produce bay from a chestnut mare, I'm guessing he doesn't have the bay gene and AP Time and Code of Conduct got their color from momma.

pointgivenfan · Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:09 pm

Rainyday wrote:
Insane Crazy wrote:I've scoured Google and am still coming up short. Are there any photos out there of Tapit as a foal/yearling? Or even a short two year old? The earliest footage I can find is his maiden race.

I'm just curious about what's under all that white. He grayed out so fast that it's hard to find a shot of him where you can see the real outlines of his leg markings.
I want to believe, from the foals he's sired, that his inner horse is a really flashy chestnut. (I have no proof, though, and all you need to find is a bay foal he's sired out of a chestnut mare to collapse my theory to bits.)

None of the bay Tapit offspring listed on Pedigreequery is out of a chestnut mare, and the ones that were listed as bay with chestnut dams are actually chestnut. So there's that.

It's a slow day today.

Insane Crazy · Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:50 pm

pointgivenfan wrote:
Rainyday wrote:
Insane Crazy wrote:I've scoured Google and am still coming up short. Are there any photos out there of Tapit as a foal/yearling? Or even a short two year old? The earliest footage I can find is his maiden race.

I'm just curious about what's under all that white. He grayed out so fast that it's hard to find a shot of him where you can see the real outlines of his leg markings.
I want to believe, from the foals he's sired, that his inner horse is a really flashy chestnut. (I have no proof, though, and all you need to find is a bay foal he's sired out of a chestnut mare to collapse my theory to bits.)
None of the bay Tapit offspring listed on Pedigreequery is out of a chestnut mare, and the ones that were listed as bay with chestnut dams are actually chestnut. So there's that.

It's a slow day today.

You're doing god's work.

pointgivenfan · Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:01 pm

Insane Crazy wrote:
pointgivenfan wrote: None of the bay Tapit offspring listed on Pedigreequery is out of a chestnut mare, and the ones that were listed as bay with chestnut dams are actually chestnut. So there's that.

It's a slow day today.
You're doing god's work.

Thanks.

One of the "bays" even had a picture that quite clearly showed she was chestnut. I mean some chestnuts look bay if you catch them at the right moment, and vice versa, but this was definitely not one of those cases...

Treve · Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:26 pm

BlindLucky wrote:
Flanders wrote: He has to be chestnut. He hasn't, to my knowledge, sired any bays out of anything but bay mares.
He's sired bays out of grey mares (A P Time, Code of Conduct, etc.), or are you looking for bays out of chestnuts only? I don't really know exactly how that works

Okay so quick lesson in genotype and phenotype with basic horse colours

(I don't know how familiar you are with genetics so forgive me if I go over some basic stuff you already know)

Capital letter means the allele is present, lowercase means it isn't. If a horse has two copies of a gene, then it is Homozygous. If it has one copy of a gene it is Heterozygous. A Homozygous gene will always pass on one copy of said gene to offpsring. A heterozygous has a 50% chance to pass it on.

First off, the most basic colour horses have is red ie Chestnut which is indicated as CC. If you removed every optional gene, a horse would be chestnut.

Extension is the black gene, and is dominant over Chestnut.

Agouti is reponsible for bay, and has a little quirk - on its own, it can't be expressed phenotypically, so a horse with Agouti and C would be Chestnut. However, in order for Agouti to be active, it needs to work with Extension.

So basically...
Chestnut: ee ?? CC (basically the genotype combinations for Chestnut are: ee aa CC, ee Aa CC and ee AA CC)
Black: E? aa CC (Possible genotype combination is Ee aa CC or EE aa CC)
Bay: E? A? CC (possible genotype combinations are Ee Aa CC, Ee AA CC, EE AA CC, EE Aa CC).

Now depending on genotype, different combinations can get you different colours.

Let's label our genotypes to look at the possibilities.
Chestnut = ee aa CC
Chestnut 2 = ee Aa CC
Chestnut 3 = ee AA CC

Black = Ee aa CC
Black 2 = EE aa CC

Bay = Ee Aa CC
Bay 2 = Ee AA CC
Bay 3 = EE Aa CC
Bay 4 = EE AA CC (will always produce a Bay-based horse)

So...
Chestnut + Chestnut = Chestnut
Chestnut + Chestnut 2 = Chestnut, Chestnut 2
Chestnut 2 + Chestnut 2 = Chestnut, Chestnut, Chestnut 3
Chestnut 3 + Chestnut 2 = Chestnut 2, Chestnut 3
Chestnut 3 + Chestnut 3 = Chestnut 3

Black + Black = Black or Black 2 as well as Chestnut
Black 2 + Black = Black, Black 2
Black 2 + Black 2 = Black 2
Black + Chestnut = Black or Chestnut
Black 2 + Chestnut = Black
Black + Bay = Black, Black 2, Bay, Bay 3, Chestnut or Chestnut 2
Black + Bay 2 = Bay, Bay 3, Chestnut 2 (you can never get a black-based horse out of an AA genotype)
Black + Bay 3 = Black, Black 2, Bay, Bay 3
Black + Bay 4 = Bay, Bay 3 (You can never get a black-based horse out of an AA genotype, nor can you get a chestnut out of an EE genotype)
Black 2 + Bay = Black, Black 2, Bay, Bay 3 (you can never get a chestnut-based horse out of an EE genotype)
Black 2 + Bay 2 = Bay, Bay 3
Black 2 + Bay 3 = Black 2, Bay 3
Black 2 + Bay 4 = Bay 3

Bay + Bay = Bay, Bay 2, Bay 3, Bay 4, Chestnut, Chestnut 2, Chestnut 3, Black, Black 2
Bay + Bay 2 = Bay, Bay 2, Chestnut 2, Chestnut 3
Bay + Bay 3 = Black, Black 2, Bay 3, Bay 4
Bay + Bay 4 = Bay, Bay 2, Bay 3, Bay 4
Bay 2 + Bay 2 = Bay 2, Bay 4, Chestnut 3
Bay 2 + Bay 3 = Bay, Bay 2, Bay 3, Bay 4
Bay 2 + Bay 4 = Bay 2, Bay 4
Bay 3 + Bay 3 = Black 2, Bay 3, Bay 4
Bay 3 + Bay 4 = Bay 3, Bay 4
Bay 4 + Bay 4 = Bay 4

Bay + Chestnut = Bay, Chestnut, Chestnut 2, Black
Bay + Chestnut 2 = Bay, Bay 2, Chestnut, Chestnut 2, Chestnut 3, Black
Bay + Chestnut 3 = Bay, Bay 2, Chestnut 2, Chestnut 3
Bay 2 + Chestnut = Bay, Chestnut 2, Chestnut 3
Bay 2 + Chestnut 2 = Bay, Bay 2, Chestnut 2, Chestnut 3
Bay 2 + Chestnut 3 = Bay 2, Chestnut 3
Bay 3 + Chestnut = Bay, Black
Bay 3 + Chestnut 2 = Bay, Bay 2, Black
Bay 3 + Chestnut 3 = Bay, Bay 2
Bay 4 + Chestnut = Bay
Bay 4 + Chestnut 2 = Bay, Bay 2
Bay 4 + Chestnut 3 = Bay 2

Yes that got old really quick but it is a really slow day lmao. As someone already mentioned Grey is a separate gene (marked as Gg and it acts on top of the base (similarly to dilute colours). So based on his progeny and Ancestry, Tapit's genotype is:
e? ?? CC Gg (maybe a Spl for splash or Sbn for Sabino somewhere in there given the kind of markings he throws)
If I were to make an educated guess I would say he carries Agouti, he could probably even be homozygous for Agouti (has he ever thrown Black?) and he likely is a Chestnut though there is a very slim chance that he's a bay so his profile probably looks like ee Aa CC Gg. A lot is possible given his pedigree... and his progeny. Only thing we know for sure is he is not homozygous for the Extension gene.

Sheepish · Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:38 pm

Maybe contact his breeder?

Flanders · Fri Jan 15, 2016 5:46 pm

BlindLucky wrote:
Flanders wrote: He has to be chestnut. He hasn't, to my knowledge, sired any bays out of anything but bay mares.
He's sired bays out of grey mares (A P Time, Code of Conduct, etc.), or are you looking for bays out of chestnuts only? I don't really know exactly how that works

Blah. I should have said he didn't sire any bays foals out of chestnut mares. lol

I went through his foals before and checked.

BlindLucky · Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:43 pm

The genetics of color isn't anything I've ever really studied, and my college years weren't heavy on the sciences, so this is all rather new and fascinating to me. Thanks, guys

Insane Crazy · Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:39 am

Sheepish wrote:Maybe contact his breeder?

I actually did email Brookdale, the farm that raised/sold him. I imagine that if they had some they wanted to share they might have already, but maybe they're big nerds like I am (and Treve, apparently.

).

BL, if you ever want personal lessons in pony colors, let me know. I freakin' love this stuff! I spent a good part of yesterday wandering my work building thinking about appaloosa genetics. See again: nerd.

Delamont · Sat Jan 16, 2016 5:33 pm

Treve, my head is spinning, but THANKS!

Acadiana · Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:17 pm

http://www.horsephotos.com/searchresult ... rds=Joseph.

Maybe this guy has one? He has a bunch of book 1 2002 September yearlings.

Insane Crazy · Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:36 pm

Acadiana wrote:http://www.horsephotos.com/searchresult ... rds=Joseph.

Maybe this guy has one? He has a bunch of book 1 2002 September yearlings.

Email sent! Great idea, thanks for digging that up.

Acadiana · Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:14 pm

Insane Crazy wrote:
Acadiana wrote:http://www.horsephotos.com/searchresult ... rds=Joseph.

Maybe this guy has one? He has a bunch of book 1 2002 September yearlings.
Email sent! Great idea, thanks for digging that up.

Hope he has one! I saw 333 and 394/395 on there, I would think 375 would be somewhere in his pics!

Website:
http://www.winningimages.biz

His Facebook is also on there.

Insane Crazy · Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:35 pm

Acadiana wrote:
Insane Crazy wrote:
Acadiana wrote:http://www.horsephotos.com/searchresult ... rds=Joseph.

Maybe this guy has one? He has a bunch of book 1 2002 September yearlings.
Email sent! Great idea, thanks for digging that up.

Hope he has one! I saw 333 and 394/395 on there, I would think 375 would be somewhere in his pics!

Website:
http://www.winningimages.biz

His Facebook is also on there.

Dug around his FB and website to no avail, but snagged his email from there. Hopefully there's something! Even if it wasn't "good enough" for HorsePhotos, or some such.