Page 1 of 1
Empire Maker
Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:53 pm
by Missbeholder
Are there any sons of Empire Maker having any impact out there as studs? Pioneerof The Nile died several years ago, and Bodemeister was shipped off to Turkey shortly after getting a Derby winner in his first crop. Maybe I'm forgetting someone, which is a big possibility, but I can't think of any other son of Empire Maker making any noise in the breeding shed.
I know he did spend some years in Japan before being repatriated, and maybe he has sons that have had success over there, but I don't hear any chatter at all about his sons here in the US after Pioneerof The Nile and, briefly, Bodemeister.
Empire Maker was always a horse that was kind of an enigma to me. I couldn't figure him out. He certainly wasn't a fraud! His talent was obviously immeasurable. But I think he was a bit "flakey". Maybe it was the Toussaud in him, making him opinionated as to what he wanted to do and when he wanted to do it! If he didn't "feel like it", he wouldn't. When he lost the Jim Dandy to Strong Hope without excuses, I decided that he was kind of dishonest. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think he ever ran again.
He was certainly a much better sire of fillies than he was of colts, so maybe that tells the story better than anything could.
Re: Empire Maker
Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:06 pm
by Flanders
He had hoof issues quite a bit during his 3yo year. He was supposed to race after the Jim Dandy but he got sick and then his hoof issues resurfaced.
As for sons, no. He only had 3 G1 winning sons. Pioneerof The Nile, Bodemeister and Eight Rings(who stands in California and stood his first year in 2023). He had Sky Kingdom at Darby Dan for a bit but he moved to a regional market.
The only one I know that stands in Japan is Battle Plan and he is not a successful stallion. According to Equineline, he has 2 SWs from 413 foals of racing age. I don't think Empire Maker did exceptionally well when he was in Japan. I didn't search SUPER in depth but he didn't get any G1 winners and maybe only 1 G2 winner when he was at stud there. The G2 winner was Federalist who I mentioned in the other thread, he went to stud in South Korea and died in 2021.
I think the mantle of the line has fallen to his grandsons. Right now, the best of which is American Pharoah. He is a decent sire, he just hasn't gotten that US superstar. And maybe it'll surprise you but at this point he has the same SW% as Empire Maker, which is 4%(this is from foals of racing age). And yes he was bred to spectacular books of mares his first couple years, but so was his grand sire. He has 8 G1 winners right now while Empire Maker got 13. Pioneer got 4.
Re: Empire Maker
Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:04 pm
by Missbeholder
Flanders wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:06 pm
He had hoof issues quite a bit during his 3yo year. He was supposed to race after the Jim Dandy but he got sick and then his hoof issues resurfaced.
As for sons, no. He only had 3 G1 winning sons. Pioneerof The Nile, Bodemeister and Eight Rings(who stands in California and stood his first year in 2023). He had Sky Kingdom at Darby Dan for a bit but he moved to a regional market.
The only one I know that stands in Japan is Battle Plan and he is not a successful stallion. According to Equineline, he has 2 SWs from 413 foals of racing age. I don't think Empire Maker did exceptionally well when he was in Japan. I didn't search SUPER in depth but he didn't get any G1 winners and maybe only 1 G2 winner when he was at stud there. The G2 winner was Federalist who I mentioned in the other thread, he went to stud in South Korea and died in 2021.
I think the mantle of the line has fallen to his grandsons. Right now, the best of which is American Pharoah. He is a decent sire, he just hasn't gotten that US superstar. And maybe it'll surprise you but at this point he has the same SW% as Empire Maker, which is 4%(this is from foals of racing age). And yes he was bred to spectacular books of mares his first couple years, but so was his grand sire. He has 8 G1 winners right now while Empire Maker got 13. Pioneer got 4.
Very interesting, Flanders, and thanks for the response. I just thought it strange that, given his pretty rich pedigree, Empire Maker hasn't been very effective as a sire of sires. Of course it can be a real crap shoot with that stuff. Buckpasser was about as beautifully and regally bred as you can get, but he couldn't sire an effective stallion son to save his neck! He is responsible in tail-male for Silver Charm and Spend A Buck, but neither of those were particularly successful in the shed! But he's also one of the two or three greatest broodmare sires of the 20th Century!
Empire Maker sired a lot of really good fillies. I would think his record as a broodmare sire is more impressive. (So awful that Royal Delta died so young)!
I really think Frankel believed that Empire Maker was his Triple Crown winner, but he came to find out about the horse. I read a quote once from him where he said that if Empire Maker had half the heart of Peace Rules, nobody would have beaten him! That says a lot!
Re: Empire Maker
Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:35 pm
by Flanders
Missbeholder wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:04 pm
Flanders wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:06 pm
He had hoof issues quite a bit during his 3yo year. He was supposed to race after the Jim Dandy but he got sick and then his hoof issues resurfaced.
As for sons, no. He only had 3 G1 winning sons. Pioneerof The Nile, Bodemeister and Eight Rings(who stands in California and stood his first year in 2023). He had Sky Kingdom at Darby Dan for a bit but he moved to a regional market.
The only one I know that stands in Japan is Battle Plan and he is not a successful stallion. According to Equineline, he has 2 SWs from 413 foals of racing age. I don't think Empire Maker did exceptionally well when he was in Japan. I didn't search SUPER in depth but he didn't get any G1 winners and maybe only 1 G2 winner when he was at stud there. The G2 winner was Federalist who I mentioned in the other thread, he went to stud in South Korea and died in 2021.
I think the mantle of the line has fallen to his grandsons. Right now, the best of which is American Pharoah. He is a decent sire, he just hasn't gotten that US superstar. And maybe it'll surprise you but at this point he has the same SW% as Empire Maker, which is 4%(this is from foals of racing age). And yes he was bred to spectacular books of mares his first couple years, but so was his grand sire. He has 8 G1 winners right now while Empire Maker got 13. Pioneer got 4.
Very interesting, Flanders, and thanks for the response. I just thought it strange that, given his pretty rich pedigree, Empire Maker hasn't been very effective as a sire of sires. Of course it can be a real crap shoot with that stuff. Buckpasser was about as beautifully and regally bred as you can get, but he couldn't sire an effective stallion son to save his neck! He is responsible in tail-male for Silver Charm and Spend A Buck, but neither of those were particularly successful in the shed! But he's also one of the two or three greatest broodmare sires of the 20th Century!
Empire Maker sired a lot of really good fillies. I would think his record as a broodmare sire is more impressive. (So awful that Royal Delta died so young)!
I really think Frankel believed that Empire Maker was his Triple Crown winner, but he came to find out about the horse. I read a quote once from him where he said that if Empire Maker had half the heart of Peace Rules, nobody would have beaten him! That says a lot!
I think Empire Maker had a ton of heart considering he ran in the Derby with a bruised heel and still finished 2nd. It was only found a few days before the race. Probably because he ran on it, he was only able to make 2 more starts before he had to be retired because of the same issue months later.
Pioneer was his stallion son, he had 6% SWs to foals of racing age. He just died at 13, very early in the breeding season. I mean even though Empire Maker was only in Japan for 5 years that is still a long time for a stallion. He only had 4 crops after coming back. And he did get a G1 winning colt in those crops(Eight Rings) and Coolmore bought his breeding rights but then he didn't run as well as they hoped and they never stood him themselves.