Horse Racing Forum - USA Thoroughbred Races

Hello Forum,

I've been looking for advice on breeding this recently acquired mare of mine; it's been very difficult, in reaching out elsewhere, to get the type of assistance that I really feel that I need. Most of my own efforts have been through forum reading, blog hunting, and pedigree study in general; I even have an Excel spreadsheet somewhere here on my computer with the produce of every Not For Love daughter that I could find. But my efforts are purely through study, not action, and that's why I've wanted to reach outwards - to those who have been in this breed's racing and breeding industry FAR longer than I. I can say that I'm looking to inject more speed into the foal, from what looks like more of a staying pedigree (sans Mr. Prospector) to my eye.

For the purpose of physicality, as the photos I have are registering as too large for attachment, this is a 15.1 H mare - muscular, a touch stocky, and built very much like a typical QH sprinter. Heavy type, with upper body mass and a strong hindquarter. Shorter cannons and limbs, muscular forearms and gaskins, and a beautifully wide chest. The legs need a little more bone, yes, but they're straight and overall shaped rather well. Hooves are also hard and healthy, for those who might ask - she was never raced, though WAS put through training as a younger horse, so I can't say how they would've held up to that sort of stress and pressure. Additionally, it is my hope to breed type to type. Meaning that I hope to reinforce her best attributes, rather than veering to tall and to finely built than what she is on her own.

I also know that color inheritance isn't everything, but experience in my prior breed has shown that it is something to take into consideration; type and traits can follow specific color lines among certain individuals. Though there are also examples like Gone West, who is a bay like his sire but resembles the build and appearance of grandsire (chestnut) Secretariat. But to this effect, this mare is homozygous black and heterozygous bay - one copy of the Seal Brown gene. Again, color traiting is something I DO look at, but something that ultimately cannot be controlled - it won't factor too heavily into my final decision.

Thank you so much to everyone who responds! Even after this, I will continue to lurk and learn among the forum posts.

Pedigree: https://www.pedigreequery.com/twointhelowglow

May I ask why she is unraced? And why you are breeding her? To race, to sell?

To be honest, I can't tell you why she went unraced. Her original purchaser from Ryehill Farm had a bankruptcy auction, and that was where she was purchased by her prior owner. She sent her immediately into breeding (four foals by Great Notion, one by Corinthian - following the trend of CC) and only recently needed to disperse her stock. That was where I was able to pick up this mare and bring her down here to Texas, where it is abysmally hot - all breeding plans will be for next season. As for the foal, this is solely for my own endeavors and efforts - no sales pen, so any stallion goes so long as he meets requirements and approval for this mare.

If she did not have any physical problems and they put her straight to the breeding shed, then she was too slow to compete and they tried to see how she would work out as a breeding mare. She only had 4 foals and is 14 years old. My best guess is that the foals weren't racing material either (maybe someone can check if they even started) or they would have bred her again.

My honest advice is that you don't breed her if you want to try and have a race horse (you didn't specify). With how much the breeding costs, then the upkeep etc etc. it would be a huge money sink and most likely the foal won't be successful or even make it to the races. You would probably be better off to research a trainer that you like and then go the claiming route. Maybe even enter a partnership for a promising yearling (no guarantee there either but still better chances than to breed her).

If you want to breed for a riding horse then really any stallion goes. There's also Thoroughbred farms that even specialize on eventers or breed for looks.

It really depends on what you want and on how much money you want to spend.

Kurenai wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:18 pm My best guess is that the foals weren't racing material either (maybe someone can check if they even started) or they would have bred her again.

she had 5 foals:
Chobee Girl by Great Notion in 2013 - 3 wins in 18 starts;
Notion's Beauty by Great Notion in 2015 - winless in 14 starts;
Notionality by Great Notion in 2016 - 1 win in 11 starts;
I'm Wannabe by Corinthian in 2017 - winless in 1 start;
and Civil Unrest by Great Notion in 2019 - winless in 7 starts.

I would suggest (if you haven't already, ofc) to filter the BH stallion register search to Texas, and sift through there. A lot of variety.

You could also look nearby to Oklahoma, New Mexico, Louisiana, etc.

One Texan that comes to mind is Bradester - who appears to match your mare's physical type based on the photo and who won most of his races gate-to-wire.

Five foals and all making it to the track and some even winning isn't bad actually. Thanks brunanas!

I can't comment with lots of knowledge on a stallion (I'm more into turf breeding), as Mylute suggested I would look at local stallions. Cinco Charlie seems to pass on speed pretty good. https://leademfarm.com/cinco-charlie He's not as muscular and stocky as Bradester which for me is a good thing, considering the body type of your mare. Checking with truenicks both of them get a B. (I also matched her up with Runhappy for giggles and he gets A+, but that's not an option I know).

If Runhappy nicks well, would another son of Super Saver also score well? Any nice ones standing around?

BaroqueAgain1 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:05 am If Runhappy nicks well, would another son of Super Saver also score well? Any nice ones standing around?

Competitive Edge is the only other Super Saver son at stud, and he just so happens to stand in Texas, but he's only a D rating on TrueNicks.

For TX stallions I'm partial to Aikenite just because I like his outcross pedigree. He looks like a nice compact type.

Out of curiosity I nicked your mare with Kitten's Joy (RIP) and it was an A++.

Lucky for you, there are options for his sons nearby:

Live in Joy: SW, raced through age 9.
Fear the Kitten: Preferred dirt, more compact build, raced through age 7, won first two races at two (precocity), MGSP
Don Juan Kitten: SW, GSP, out of a Not For Love mare too, so would be more inbred.

FTK is in New Mexico. Further away is Oscar Nominated in California.

However none of these guys have foals at the track, which makes them even more of wildcards.

I apologize for the silence; I've got class after work until 9:00 PM and so Mon/Wed isn't the best for me to be doing anything on the internet in the evenings. I remember going through both Trunicks and eNicks, writing down everyone who had an A+ ranking or higher, and then heavily documenting them and anyone who was tangentially related on similar crosses. I went through a few lists of possibilities that way, but never could quite narrow down a final option for who/what I wanted to go with. Both systems, obviously, liked Kitten's Joy and sons the best - there was also one regional stallion up in Maryland that had an enormous five figure number, but I think that was a skewed outlier because of the bloodline isolation up there. My concern with the Kitten's Joy avenue was the legginess (finer boned, not length/height) and general propensity towards turf over dirt. There is dam factor influence to take into consideration, because a horse is more than one parent or ancestor, but as someone here mentioned - then you start dealing with wildcard facets.

I also approached the mating possibility from the point of A.P. Indy - preferably the sire line source, but certainly with the option of damsire. I realize that everyone might be screaming "STAMINA" and "HOOF/LEG ISSUES" at me here, and that a similar cross was already done (in the wake of CC) with the stallion Corinthian and wasn't all that successful. But honestly, I didn't really like Corinthian all that much when I saw him, millionaire status notwithstanding. I read in different places online that he wasn't very popular with other members of the breeding/racing crowd either, so perhaps I'm not punching above my weight class on that opinion. The route of A.P. Indy (which DID generally lead me to A+ or higher nicks) on the sire line tagged a few stallions that I found with rather impressive pedigrees, some with some good results on the track as well - even if they're standing well outside the scope of Kentucky and the higher stud fees.

Mr Speaker - Moved from Lanes End to a station here in Texas with new owners. All Phipps bred, and on the same Sire/Damsire cross as Lucky Pulpit - with the addition of Personal Ensign as the dam line source. I also feel that he's built more towards Lucky Pulpit than Corinthian was. As a bonus, Dorine is bred on the same cross as Forli (Aristophanes/Advocate dtr.). Somewhat contradicting what I said above, I think that Speaker did his better work on Turf - his few ventures onto Dirt (where it wasn't a weather-necessitated track swap) led to a pretty thorough pummeling. However, it's a dirt pedigree, a VERY successful one, and he's built like a dirt sprinter. Sometimes a horse's pedigree and physicality can overcome their own performance, given the right cross. Additionally, another source of Numbered Account through Private Account.

Leadem In Ken - I think he might've been moved around a bit, as he's supposed to be at Leadem In Farms but doesn't show up under the stallion tab. Anyways, a generation further removed from Pulpit than the above, but Sky Mesa has been a decently successful representative of the bloodline. Additionally, the pedigree takes from the successful Kitten's Joy cross further above by involving his own dam line. Most of the pedigree says stayer to me, but there is the precocity with three crosses to Mr Prospector and the two to Storm Cat (something I know that people don't always agree with) - AND he did do sprint races in the dirt.

Lone Sailor - Another speedy miler, with a stamina/sprint mixed pedigree, but of a different build than my other selections. Taller, leggier, but still with an excellent shoulder and hip; very classically handsome, and decent heartgirth to boot. An underutilized sire line source of A.P. Indy alongside a pedigree pretty rich in Phipps bloodlines. Twice to Mr. Prospector, the stamina Seeking the Gold and speedy Gone West, four to Secretariat, and a double Broadway with Reviewer. Another instance of Storm Cat (single this time) and the dam line of the impeccable Courtly Dee. This is probably the one that I've been hanging onto the longest and, admittedly, grown the most attached to.

I've also put a pin in a few other horses (Bellavia, No Parole, and Flashpoint), but work and home responsibilities haven't let me study them as thoroughly as I usually like to with my stud considerations.

I almost suggested Leadem In Ken! However I had forgotten he's Kitten's Joy's nephew.

The BH register still lists him as standing at Leadem Farms (he was the first one to stand there), so it's possible he just doesn't show up on their site somehow.

Have you looked at Preferred Issue?

What about My Golden Song? The UBS son Fibre Sonde has done really well with Not For Love mares.

bare it all wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:09 pm What about My Golden Song? The UBS son Fibre Sonde has done really well with Not For Love mares.

I think that has more to do with proximity of those mares creating a larger sample - he's in WV so gets a lot of MD-bred mares.

JustAnotherSoul wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:27 pm

I also know that color inheritance isn't everything, but experience in my prior breed has shown that it is something to take into consideration; type and traits can follow specific color lines among certain individuals. Though there are also examples like Gone West, who is a bay like his sire but resembles the build and appearance of grandsire (chestnut) Secretariat. But to this effect, this mare is homozygous black and heterozygous bay - one copy of the Seal Brown gene. Again, color traiting is something I DO look at, but something that ultimately cannot be controlled - it won't factor too heavily into my final decision.

To be technical here, there's no such thing as homozygous black (it's homozygous dominant extension aka EE. E is the ability to produce red and black...) and you also can't be homozygous black and bay.
Your mare is bay, EE Aa. There is no seal brown gene. There's red, there's black, there's bay. Those are your bases. Everything else is just shade and modifiers.
Because your mare is EE, she will never produce a red foal. Depending on the stallion, she can have black and bay.

Miss Woodford wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:02 pm

bare it all wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:09 pm What about My Golden Song? The UBS son Fibre Sonde has done really well with Not For Love mares.

I think that has more to do with proximity of those mares creating a larger sample - he's in WV so gets a lot of MD-bred mares.

Well, nevermind on the suggestion of My Golden Song. He passed away on August 6.