Horse Racing Forum - USA Thoroughbred Races

That's far too reaching to say no one is going to want to stand this horse at stud. It's your opinion, not shared by others of that I am certain. If Keen Ice can get Calumet to stand him I don't think it's reaching to say that they or others wouldn't be interested. He fits right into their stallion parameters, frankly. ..... As far as calling for him to be gelded? a multiple graded stakes winner, amongst which is the grade 1 JCGC, sound and raced at 2,3,4, and now 5, that in my opinion is ridiculous,...

Keen Ice not only won the Travers and finished 2 in the Haskell as a 3 year old, but he finished 3rd in the Classic the next year, and then won the Suburban and finished 2nd in the Whitney and JCGC as a 5 year old. There is no comparison to Max, who wasn’t as good a 3 year old and has completely collapsed in his last 3 races; he’s been awful, and that’s putting it mildly. Keen Ice is by Curlin, Max is by Honor Code, a sire so ice cold he didn’t get 30 mares bred in 2021, and who’s having a very mediocre year in 2022. This idea that his offspring improve as they mature ? So far, for the most part, even that hasn’t proven to be true.

Calumet has supported HC more than anyone, and they have been rewarded by a group of terrible horses; I’d be shocked if they bought any more or HC or bred to him, nevermind stand Max.

No one is going to care that he’s running as a 5 year old when they are by far the worse races of his career - excepting the Classic, late in his 4 year old season. It’s clear that Happy Saver is much better, and so was Mystic Guide; the Suburban will be viewed as a fluke, and probably the Gold Cup, too, as he beat a weak field with slow figures.

brunanas wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:00 am i don't like to pick sides but to be honest i do think saying he should be gelded is a reach. sure he hasn't had a good year, but still he had some nice runs such as the Whitney and the JC Gold Cup as well as finishing a nice third in the Travers to Tiz the Law who was at his absolute peak in the race. i think he should be given a chance, even if not in the US, who knows what he might throw? if even horses that basically strictly ran in claimers are given a shot (even if it's really minor), why shouldn't he?

MissNMecke wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:32 am While I agree that it seems that Max's best racing days are behind him, I think saying that Max should be gelded is going a bit far.
I think he's earned a chance to be a stallion. (After all, with almost all of the top colts being retired regularly at the end of their 3 year old campaigns, who's to say that they wouldn't tail off themselves?)
Max was sound enough to run in all three Triple Crown races and went on to win graded stakes at 4.
Everyone keeps complaining that stakes colts retire too soon, why would owners or trainers risk another campaign if not only a possible breakdown but 'He ran a horrible couple of races and he's not by Tapit, War Front, or Into Mischief: Should have retired him as soon as he won a stakes, but now? Time to snip him'. was on the table?

Slewfan2 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:09 am

MissNMecke wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:32 am While I agree that it seems that Max's best racing days are behind him, I think saying that Max should be gelded is going a bit far.
I think he's earned a chance to be a stallion. (After all, with almost all of the top colts being retired regularly at the end of their 3 year old campaigns, who's to say that they wouldn't tail off themselves?)
Max was sound enough to run in all three Triple Crown races and went on to win graded stakes at 4.
Everyone keeps complaining that stakes colts retire too soon, why would owners or trainers risk another campaign if not only a possible breakdown but 'He ran a horrible couple of races and he's not by Tapit, War Front, or Into Mischief: Should have retired him as soon as he won a stakes, but now? Time to snip him'. was on the table?

That’s fair, but I don’t see any farm in a major racing state being interested. This isn’t about his not being by Tapit or some other top sire - you’re underestimating how ice cold Honor Code is, how the market and breeders are out on him. Even if he stood for $500, I wouldn’t breed to him.

MissNMecke wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:20 am

Slewfan2 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:09 am

MissNMecke wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:32 am While I agree that it seems that Max's best racing days are behind him, I think saying that Max should be gelded is going a bit far.
I think he's earned a chance to be a stallion. (After all, with almost all of the top colts being retired regularly at the end of their 3 year old campaigns, who's to say that they wouldn't tail off themselves?)
Max was sound enough to run in all three Triple Crown races and went on to win graded stakes at 4.
Everyone keeps complaining that stakes colts retire too soon, why would owners or trainers risk another campaign if not only a possible breakdown but 'He ran a horrible couple of races and he's not by Tapit, War Front, or Into Mischief: Should have retired him as soon as he won a stakes, but now? Time to snip him'. was on the table?

That’s fair, but I don’t see any farm in a major racing state being interested. This isn’t about his not being by Tapit or some other top sire - you’re underestimating how ice cold Honor Code is, how the market and breeders are out on him. Even if he stood for $500, I wouldn’t breed to him.

I do see your point as well. But regional markets exist. AND, hypothetically, let's assume that Hot Rod Charlie comes back from Dubai and doesn't return to form ( a lot of horses never do.) So, say he runs three or four abysmal races in a row. Now, Oxbow has not been a popular sire for several years. Would that mean that Hot Rod Charlie shouldn't be given a chance? I would rather see a horse that showed some brilliant moments that maybe raced past their 'best by date' than these three-hit wonders get a shot as a stallion. If they don't produce anything in a crop or two, THEN geld them, and send them on to a new career.

Slewfan2 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:50 am

brunanas wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:00 am i don't like to pick sides but to be honest i do think saying he should be gelded is a reach. sure he hasn't had a good year, but still he had some nice runs such as the Whitney and the JC Gold Cup as well as finishing a nice third in the Travers to Tiz the Law who was at his absolute peak in the race. i think he should be given a chance, even if not in the US, who knows what he might throw? if even horses that basically strictly ran in claimers are given a shot (even if it's really minor), why shouldn't he?

He never ran in the Whitney....

I’m not going back to his 3 year old year, which was pretty solid. But his performances starting with the Classic have been incredibly awful...I actually hadn’t thought of him being sold overseas, which I don’t want; I can see that happening.

SukiSatsuki wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:48 pm Geld him. Hes not really wanted or needed at stud. If you want to breed to a ap indy you can still breed to honor code,hes cheaper than honor ap.

Slewfan2 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:51 pm

SukiSatsuki wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:48 pm Geld him. Hes not really wanted or needed at stud. If you want to breed to a ap indy you can still breed to honor code,hes cheaper than honor ap.

I would never breed to HC over HAP…

SukiSatsuki wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:01 pm Well one is the son of the other so....that doesn't give honor ap any hope does it? good horse shouldnt be breeding barely done anything on the track

Honor Code wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:39 pm

SukiSatsuki wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:01 pm Well one is the son of the other so....that doesn't give honor ap any hope does it? good horse shouldnt be breeding barely done anything on the track

There are some stallions whose sires (and dams) are relatively lackluster and they do turn out to be super sires. This is the hope every breeder has (unreasonable or not) and why many give far less accomplished horses than Max Player a chance at stud.

Into Mischief has a far less accomplished record, as does Malibu Moon, Not This Time and War Front to name a few. Not saying he will become any of these (and the odds are against him) but this is why he does deserve a chance at stud even if it is regional only.

SukiSatsuki wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:00 pm Malibu Moon threw quite a lot of unsound horses. And honestly its crazy to think youd be able to get a super stallion from lack luster families. Maybe hed be a good stud in a tiny market like alaska or ohio or idaho somewhere tiny and his stud fee shouldnt be more than 7k

SukiSatsuki wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:01 pm

Slewfan2 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:51 pm

SukiSatsuki wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:48 pm Geld him. Hes not really wanted or needed at stud. If you want to breed to a ap indy you can still breed to honor code,hes cheaper than honor ap.

I would never breed to HC over HAP…

Well one is the son of the other so....that doesnt give honor ap any hope does it? good horse shouldnt be breeding barely done anything on the track

Honor Code wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:39 pm

SukiSatsuki wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:01 pm Well one is the son of the other so....that doesn't give honor ap any hope does it? good horse shouldnt be breeding barely done anything on the track

There are some stallions whose sires (and dams) are relatively lackluster and they do turn out to be super sires. This is the hope every breeder has (unreasonable or not) and why many give far less accomplished horses than Max Player a chance at stud.

Into Mischief has a far less accomplished record, as does Malibu Moon, Not This Time and War Front to name a few. Not saying he will become any of these (and the odds are against him) but this is why he does deserve a chance at stud even if it is regional only.

Flanders wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:48 pm My guess is he ends up in Saudi Arabia when his racing career is over. They love the A.P. Indy lines.

Thing is, he does have some early speed, he showed that in the JCGC and Suburban last year when he won. Just the jockey has to ask him for it right out of the gate or he breaks slow and languishes at the back. He runs worse when he is back far. I do not know why they haven't tried putting him close to the pace again but the last time they did was the JCGC.