Horse Racing Forum - USA Thoroughbred Races

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:26 pm**

Decided to just start its own thread since it always causes a lot of discussion and really pushes all the other stallion news out.

http://jockeyclub.com/default.asp?secti ... es&area=16

This is the list that covered over 200 mares:
Goldencents 230 KY
Authentic 229 KY
Practical Joke 223 KY
Vekoma 222 KY
Maclean's Music 221 KY
Munnings 217 KY
Omaha Beach 215 KY
Into Mischief 214 KY
McKinzie 214 KY
Mitole 208 KY
American Pharoah 204 KY
Mo Town 204 KY

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:55 pm**

Did I read that right ? Honor Code was bred to only 29 mares?

I’m glad HAP was well received, but holy cow...I know the Farishes love him, and he’s had a very solid year, but 29 ? Oh my god..

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:03 pm**

This is a list of ones I picked for being low mares bred or because they were pensioned/moved for 2022.

Afleet Alex - 15
Algorithms - 17
Always Dreaming - 85 (I'm surprised this number is this high if his foals look as bad as they sold for in 2021)
Anchor Down - 23
Bal A Bali - 14 (the first of probably the entire roster of Calumet)
Bayern - 10
Bee Jersey - 39
Bravazo - 22
Broken Vow - 12
Carpe Diem - 11 (no one must want to buy this horse cause this is the 2nd or 3rd year I'm surprised he is still at Winstar)
Catholic Boy - 78 (I know this isn't a super low number but its also his 2nd year at stud so kind of concerning)
Cinco Charlie - 50
Coal Front - 60
Congrats - 13
Copper Bullet - 25
Country House - 58
Creative Cause - 30
Cross Traffic - 40
Demarchelier - 48
Distorted Humor - 29
Divisidero - 20
Dolphus - 10 (I don't know why this horse was moved to Kentucky after starting in Pennsylvania)
Dominus - 20
English Channel - 57
Firing Line - 19
Flintshire - 8
Free Drop Billy - 34
Funtastic - 17
Gio Ponti - 9
Heart to Heart - 47
Hightail - 28
Hit it a Bomb - 33
Honor Code - 29

(I have to stop there for now, will continue later if someone doesn't go through the rest)

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:00 pm**

With the powerful support of Into Mischief and his sons Goldencents, Authentic and Practical Joke, Harlan's Holiday and Leslie's Lady have created quite a dynasty.

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:00 pm**

I'm a bit surprised to see that McKinzie got as many mares as he did. He had a great career, but I sure didn't expect 200+ mares. I also didn't think Gainesway's stallion books typically got that big. (Please forgive my ignorance if I'm mistaken; I normally associate Spendthrift and Coolmore with big books.)

As far as the new sires go, I think I'm most excited for War of Will. I'm glad to see that he was well received.

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:21 pm**

Slewfan2 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:55 pm Did I read that right ? Honor Code was bred to only 29 mares?

I’m glad HAP was well received, but holy cow...I know the Farishes love him, and he’s had a very solid year, but 29 ? Oh my god..

You sure did. I wasn't expecting a very high number at all for him, but the fact that he covered less mares than Country House blows my mind. But for what it's worth, I wouldn't expect him to ever cover any less mares than that. Especially after he gained two new G1Ws this year.

I'm almost as surprised by the number of mares that Blame covered; 69 seems like a low number for him.

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:42 pm**

KatieK101 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:21 pm
Slewfan2 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:55 pm Did I read that right ? Honor Code was bred to only 29 mares?

I’m glad HAP was well received, but holy cow...I know the Farishes love him, and he’s had a very solid year, but 29 ? Oh my god..
You sure did. I wasn't expecting a very high number at all for him, but the fact that he covered less mares than Country House blows my mind. But for what it's worth, I wouldn't expect him to ever cover any less mares than that. Especially after he gained two new G1Ws this year.

I'm almost as surprised by the number of mares that Blame covered; 69 seems like a low number for him.

And I’ll bet most of the 29 were LE mares. Some won’t have had foals, some foals will die or never make it to he track - HC’s numbers in 2024 and 2025, maybe 2026, will suffer badly...but, LE knows this. Bill Farish said recently that HC was undervalued, and he knew about the 29 mares...he seemed very chill, so while shockingly disappointing to me, HC isn’t going anywhere.

I’m sure he’ll breed to more than 29 this year, but I don’t see him reaching even close to his earlier numbers. So be it, I suppose. Hopefully Max will run well in the Classic. How many did Country House get?

How old is Blame now?

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:01 pm**

Blame is 15 now.
I like his breeding, but he's not a very attractive horse. Or maybe he is, but is another victim of Claiborne's horrible conformation photos.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-reg ... 5939/blame
He has achieved a kind of immortality, as the only horse to ever finish in front of Zenyatta.

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:18 pm**

He is a solid sire, but suffers from what his sire line suffers from - not the prettiest, not precocious (usually), need time to develop, distance is better, don’t sell in the millions (usually)…

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:32 pm**

I'm fascinated that Honor Code got 29 mares and Hightail got 28. The only thing that makes sense is that Calumet provided all of his mares.

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:49 pm**

Include - 11
Ironicus - 20
Jack Milton - 14
Keen Ice - 48
Lea - 5
Lookin at Lucky - 80 (I just put him here cause people say what a good value he is but breeders apparently really dont think so)
Lost Treasure - 17
McCracken - 11
Midnight Lute - 72 (same as Lookin at Lucky)
Mineshaft - 41
Mohaymen - 40 (really surprised Shadwell bothered keeping him as the lone stallion in Kentucky with that number)
More Than Ready - 121 (still going strong at 24)
Mr Speaker - 22
Mshawish - 40
Mucho Macho Man - 52
Optimizer - 4
Oxbow - 28
Palace Malice - 14
Producer - 1
Promises Fulfilled - 61 (considering he is at WinStar and 2021 was his first year)
Protonico - 50
Qurbaan - 16
Raison d'Etat - 6
Ransom the Moon - 14
Real Solution - 8
Runhappy - 56
Sharp Azteca - 36
Skipshot - 5
Snapy Halo - 1
Stormy Atlantic - 8
Summer Front - 40
Take Charge Indy - 80 (think they probably regret bringing him back)
Tale of Ekati - 24
Tale of the Cat - 2
Tale of Verve - 25
Tamarkuz - 31
Texas Red - 19
Tourist - 17 (another one that WinStar must not be able to sell)
V. E. Day - 8 (probably why he is in the November breeding stock sale)
War Correspondent - 4
West Coast - 67 (pretty bad for a young stallion)
Wildcat Red - 12
Will Take Charge - 33

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:01 pm**

mariasmon wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:32 pm I'm fascinated that Honor Code got 29 mares and Hightail got 28. The only thing that makes sense is that Calumet provided all of his mares.

But then I think we could say the same about HC....I suppose I’ll be interested in how many mares he breeds this year, but it almost doesn’t matter...he’s hit so far rock bottom that he can’t bounce back no matter how well he does.

Mr. Speaker got 22, not that much fewer than HC...man. Well. I’ll just hope that he hits on a few ..

Wow, West Coast...now, Flatter isn’t known as a sire of sires, but he was a very good horse. I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised. In a recent article on his yearlings, even Bill Farish didn’t seem overly enamored

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:04 pm**

KatieK101 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:21 pm
Slewfan2 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:55 pm Did I read that right ? Honor Code was bred to only 29 mares?

I’m glad HAP was well received, but holy cow...I know the Farishes love him, and he’s had a very solid year, but 29 ? Oh my god..
You sure did. I wasn't expecting a very high number at all for him, but the fact that he covered less mares than Country House blows my mind. But for what it's worth, I wouldn't expect him to ever cover any less mares than that. Especially after he gained two new G1Ws this year.

I'm almost as surprised by the number of mares that Blame covered; 69 seems like a low number for him.

Yeah I was really surprised with Blame as well. I was going to put him on the list but then didn't and had to do something for a little bit. I wanted some time to look into how popular he was or wasn't the past couple years and didn't have time then.
So 2017 he only bred 48. Then 2018-2020 he bred exactly 112 mares.

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:07 pm**

Flanders wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:04 pm
KatieK101 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:21 pm
Slewfan2 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:55 pm Did I read that right ? Honor Code was bred to only 29 mares?

I’m glad HAP was well received, but holy cow...I know the Farishes love him, and he’s had a very solid year, but 29 ? Oh my god..
You sure did. I wasn't expecting a very high number at all for him, but the fact that he covered less mares than Country House blows my mind. But for what it's worth, I wouldn't expect him to ever cover any less mares than that. Especially after he gained two new G1Ws this year.

I'm almost as surprised by the number of mares that Blame covered; 69 seems like a low number for him.
Yeah I was really surprised with Blame as well. I was going to put him on the list but then didn't and had to do something for a little bit. I wanted some time to look into how popular he was or wasn't the past couple years and didn't have time then.
So 2017 he only bred 48. Then 2018-2020 he bred exactly 112 mares.

We discussed this last year. I know you said the 85 mares HC bred in 2020 was a bad sign - and I thought so, too. Did you expect this large a drop ? Think he can at least make it back to 80 or so in 2022? It goes without saying that his stud fee will have to be slashed...

Edit: which, it wasn’t..I’m surprised they left HC at $20,000

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:16 pm**

Slewfan2 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:07 pm
Flanders wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:04 pm
KatieK101 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:21 pm

You sure did. I wasn't expecting a very high number at all for him, but the fact that he covered less mares than Country House blows my mind. But for what it's worth, I wouldn't expect him to ever cover any less mares than that. Especially after he gained two new G1Ws this year.

I'm almost as surprised by the number of mares that Blame covered; 69 seems like a low number for him.
Yeah I was really surprised with Blame as well. I was going to put him on the list but then didn't and had to do something for a little bit. I wanted some time to look into how popular he was or wasn't the past couple years and didn't have time then.
So 2017 he only bred 48. Then 2018-2020 he bred exactly 112 mares.
We discussed this last year. I know you said the 85 mares HC bred in 2020 was a bad sign - and I thought so, too. Did you expect this large a drop ? Think he can at least make it back to 80 or so in 2022? It goes without saying that his stud fee will have to be slashed...

I figured he would drop in mares bred in 2021 but not that low, I thought 50-60 range. I think he'll bounce back some in 2022, I just don't know how much. The thing is, yes he has 7 SWs now, including 2 G1SWs this year, but that is only 2% of his foals of racing age and that isn't good enough for most breeders. Around 4% stakes winners to foals of racing age is usually the minimum for stallions standing in Kentucky at most farms. Because lower than that and breeders just don't use them. He'll get more time because he is at Lane's End but I'm really surprised they didn't drop his stud fee down some considering the number of mares he got in 2021.

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:23 pm**

Flanders wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:16 pm
Slewfan2 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:07 pm
Flanders wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:04 pm
Yeah I was really surprised with Blame as well. I was going to put him on the list but then didn't and had to do something for a little bit. I wanted some time to look into how popular he was or wasn't the past couple years and didn't have time then.
So 2017 he only bred 48. Then 2018-2020 he bred exactly 112 mares.
We discussed this last year. I know you said the 85 mares HC bred in 2020 was a bad sign - and I thought so, too. Did you expect this large a drop ? Think he can at least make it back to 80 or so in 2022? It goes without saying that his stud fee will have to be slashed...
I figured he would drop in mares bred in 2021 but not that low, I thought 50-60 range. I think he'll bounce back some in 2022, I just don't know how much. The thing is, yes he has 7 SWs now, including 2 G1SWs this year, but that is only 2% of his foals of racing age and that isn't good enough for most breeders. Around 4% stakes winners to foals of racing age is usually the minimum for stallions standing in Kentucky at most farms. Because lower than that and breeders just don't use them. He'll get more time because he is at Lane's End but I'm really surprised they didn't drop his stud fee down some considering the number of mares he got in 2021.

True, but because he does sire later developers, I have hopes that that % will increase.

When farms set stud fees, do they do so after they gauge the interest or lack thereof from breeders ?

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:00 pm**

Slewfan2 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:23 pm
Flanders wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:16 pm
Slewfan2 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:07 pm

We discussed this last year. I know you said the 85 mares HC bred in 2020 was a bad sign - and I thought so, too. Did you expect this large a drop ? Think he can at least make it back to 80 or so in 2022? It goes without saying that his stud fee will have to be slashed...
I figured he would drop in mares bred in 2021 but not that low, I thought 50-60 range. I think he'll bounce back some in 2022, I just don't know how much. The thing is, yes he has 7 SWs now, including 2 G1SWs this year, but that is only 2% of his foals of racing age and that isn't good enough for most breeders. Around 4% stakes winners to foals of racing age is usually the minimum for stallions standing in Kentucky at most farms. Because lower than that and breeders just don't use them. He'll get more time because he is at Lane's End but I'm really surprised they didn't drop his stud fee down some considering the number of mares he got in 2021.

True, but because he does sire later developers, I have hopes that that % will increase.

When farms set stud fees, do they do so after they gauge the interest or lack thereof from breeders ?

Most farms tend to put their stud fees out after the Keeneland September yearling sale and before the Breeders Cup. They might hold off on some stallions until after the Breeders Cup. I think they wait til most of the prep races have been run and also want to judge how buyers are supporting their stallions.

Like Honor Code got one decent price yearling but when you think the average was 50k and they were bred on a 40k fee, idk. I don't understand the holding his stud fee at 20k. I would think he would be better off being dropped a little further but maybe they have interest or aren't worried.

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:48 pm**

Flanders wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:00 pm
Slewfan2 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:23 pm
Flanders wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:16 pm
I figured he would drop in mares bred in 2021 but not that low, I thought 50-60 range. I think he'll bounce back some in 2022, I just don't know how much. The thing is, yes he has 7 SWs now, including 2 G1SWs this year, but that is only 2% of his foals of racing age and that isn't good enough for most breeders. Around 4% stakes winners to foals of racing age is usually the minimum for stallions standing in Kentucky at most farms. Because lower than that and breeders just don't use them. He'll get more time because he is at Lane's End but I'm really surprised they didn't drop his stud fee down some considering the number of mares he got in 2021.

True, but because he does sire later developers, I have hopes that that % will increase.

When farms set stud fees, do they do so after they gauge the interest or lack thereof from breeders ?
Most farms tend to put their stud fees out after the Keeneland September yearling sale and before the Breeders Cup. They might hold off on some stallions until after the Breeders Cup. I think they wait til most of the prep races have been run and also want to judge how buyers are supporting their stallions.

Like Honor Code got one decent price yearling but when you think the average was 50k and they were bred on a 40k fee, idk. I don't understand the holding his stud fee at 20k. I would think he would be better off being dropped a little further but maybe they have interest or aren't worried.

Recently Bill was on a TDN podcast for a Name that Yearling (which was an Honor Code). They talked about HC for a little, and he did talk about how he was undervalued; he's not only not worried, he seemed confident, optimistic and relaxed. I'm surprised as well at no fee reduction, but I guess he knows something. I think Honor Code means a lot to Bill and his father because he's Indy's last big son. 29 mares is pretty much rock bottom (and some of those mares are probably owned by LE or in partnership with old friends of WF's - or by family); it can't get much worse than that, and I think if they were going to do anything (I guess I mean sell), it would have happened. I feel like they're just going to accept however it is with HC and simply not worry about numbers.

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:36 pm**

Flanders wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:49 pm Include - 11
Ironicus - 20
Jack Milton - 14
Keen Ice - 48
Lea - 5
Lookin at Lucky - 80 (I just put him here cause people say what a good value he is but breeders apparently really dont think so)
Lost Treasure - 17
McCracken - 11
Midnight Lute - 72 (same as Lookin at Lucky)
Mineshaft - 41
Mohaymen - 40 (really surprised Shadwell bothered keeping him as the lone stallion in Kentucky with that number)
More Than Ready - 121 (still going strong at 24)
Mr Speaker - 22
Mshawish - 40
Mucho Macho Man - 52
Optimizer - 4
Oxbow - 28
Palace Malice - 14
Producer - 1
Promises Fulfilled - 61 (considering he is at WinStar and 2021 was his first year)
Protonico - 50
Qurbaan - 16
Raison d'Etat - 6
Ransom the Moon - 14
Real Solution - 8
Runhappy - 56
Sharp Azteca - 36
Skipshot - 5
Snapy Halo - 1
Stormy Atlantic - 8
Summer Front - 40
Take Charge Indy - 80 (think they probably regret bringing him back)
Tale of Ekati - 24
Tale of the Cat - 2
Tale of Verve - 25
Tamarkuz - 31
Texas Red - 19
Tourist - 17 (another one that WinStar must not be able to sell)
V. E. Day - 8 (probably why he is in the November breeding stock sale)
War Correspondent - 4
West Coast - 67 (pretty bad for a young stallion)
Wildcat Red - 12
Will Take Charge - 33

With 5 mares bred how long before Claiborne does a data link with Lea and pensions him?

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:09 pm**

TapitsGal wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:36 pm With 5 mares bred how long before Claiborne does a data link with Lea and pensions him?

He is doing way better at stud than Data Link or Parading, actually he has the same amount of SWs as both of them combined with less foals than either of them sired.

The thing is, he isn't doing terrible, definitely not 5 mares terrible. He just hasn't had a standout horse. He has 4% SWs to foals of racing age but only two GSWS, one in Canada and one in Puerto Rico. He just isn't commercially viable, his yearlings have averaged 12k the past 2 years, he fits that breed to race niche that doesn't really exist anymore. He'd probably do better in a regional market but idk if they want to do that. I mean he stood 2021 for 5k (the same fee as he has announced for 2022) but I doubt anyone bred to him but Claiborne. They are probably hoping that he gets a big horse out of his current crop of 2yos cause its his biggest crop and the numbers fall off real fast after that. I wouldn't be surprised if he is pensioned or sold on in the next couple years.

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