Horse Racing Forum - USA Thoroughbred Races

While glancing through the stakes results today, I saw Stubbins finished 3rd. I knew who he was, I had never really investigated his pedigree. His broodmare sire, Atraf, caught my eye because I wasn't familiar with his name. I looked at his pedigree and his sire, Clantime, is listed as a NTB. I know NTBs are allowed to race in jump races. Stubbins isn't a jump racer, he is a GSW on the flat. So this really got me curious how he was allowed to race and how was Atraf listed as a thoroughbred?

Clantime is, according to the brief snippet of a book I could read, the only stallion to attain "vehicle" status. A vehicle is an 8th generation of one non-thoroughbred with the rest of the pedigree being thoroughbred. The horse has to be granted the status of "vehicle" and must meet certain criteria, though I'm having a hard time finding the actual rule. When granted the status of "vehicle", all the vehicles foals will be considered thoroughbreds. I never heard of this before and thought it was neat. Another interesting fact, Spinner, Coolmore's stallion, Churchill's 5th dam, is a half-sister to Clantime, and is a "vehicle" herself.

Well I'll be darned. I didn't know the US allowed these non-PB thoroughbreds to race on the flat. I would assume it would be allowed in our own jumps races (of which there isn't a lot but still).

Stubbins has an interesting pedigree all the way around.

Mylute wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2020 11:35 am Well I'll be darned. I didn't know the US allowed these non-PB thoroughbreds to race on the flat. I would assume it would be allowed in our own jumps races (of which there isn't a lot but still).

Stubbins has an interesting pedigree all the way around.

The US doesn't allow non-PB thoroughbreds to race on the flat, he is considered a pure TB, that is what is so interesting about it. I want to read more about it but I haven't been able to find the rule that allows a non-PB thoroughbred into the regular studbook.

I found this paragraph in a book preview of The Sport of Kings by Rebecca Cassidy on google books: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Th ... frontcover

The second is a post of pedigreequery's message board from Pan Zareta (maybe the same one who used to post here) but hasn't posted since 2018. Its the 2nd message in this thread, the first has nothing to do with vehicle horses. https://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/vie ... p?p=312523
This post says that its the International Studbook Committee that is in charge of granting vehicle status to horses and once they attain that, their foals are pure thoroughbreds. But there has to be evidence that they are worthy of studbook admittance, they have to be able to compete and win against pure bred TBs. So that leads me to another question, do they allow NTBs to race in flat races in Europe?

Then the very last paragraph in this article about Churchill, mentions his 5th dam, Spinner, a 1/2 sister to Clantime, who was a vehicle mare. http://bluebloods.com.au/2018/06/13/sto ... churchill/

But then that brings us back to Clantime, who is a NTB, who was granted vehicle status. He wasn't a jump racer, he was a flat sprinter and a decent one. Perhaps that was why he was granted vehicle status and at least one of his half-sisters was as well. Its weird because if you look him up on equineline it says, 51 starts, unraced. But he was actually a multiple stakes winners and multiple group placed runner.

I'm confused. (Not unusual.) Is any horse in the 8th generation from a NTB a "vehicle" or do they have to show they can compete? But how can they compete if they aren't TB's? Obviously Clantime was able to race but I'm not clear as to why. I can understand a rule which treated such horses as de facto TB's and allowed full participation and registration, but it's not clear if that's the case.

Diver52 wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2020 8:08 pm I'm confused. (Not unusual.) Is any horse in the 8th generation from a NTB a "vehicle" or do they have to show they can compete? But how can they compete if they aren't TB's? Obviously Clantime was able to race but I'm not clear as to why. I can understand a rule which treated such horses as de facto TB's and allowed full participation and registration, but it's not clear if that's the case.

From the little information I could find:

No, not every 8th generation is a "vehicle". They have to be okay'd by the International Stud Book to gain "vehicle" status and they can only gain that while showing they can compete against pure Thoroughbreds successfully.

So I did a little more research and NTBs/AQPS are apparently allowed to race in flat races in certain countries, its just not done a lot, as they tend to run in jump races. Wetherbys has a NTB register so all the descendants have to be registered with the NTB while the rest of the pedigree has to be registered with the General Studbook. Then at generation 8, if that horse shows he/she has ability to win races and compete well, they have a chance at being given vehicle status. If one gains it, its also possible their siblings will get vehicle status as well.

Flanders wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2020 2:25 am While glancing through the stakes results today, I saw Stubbins finished 3rd. I knew who he was, I had never really investigated his pedigree. His broodmare sire, Atraf, caught my eye because I wasn't familiar with his name. I looked at his pedigree and his sire, Clantime, is listed as a NTB. I know NTBs are allowed to race in jump races. Stubbins isn't a jump racer, he is a GSW on the flat. So this really got me curious how he was allowed to race and how was Atraf listed as a thoroughbred?

Clantime is, according to the brief snippet of a book I could read, the only stallion to attain "vehicle" status. A vehicle is an 8th generation of one non-thoroughbred with the rest of the pedigree being thoroughbred. The horse has to be granted the status of "vehicle" and must meet certain criteria, though I'm having a hard time finding the actual rule. When granted the status of "vehicle", all the vehicles foals will be considered thoroughbreds. I never heard of this before and thought it was neat. Another interesting fact, Spinner, Coolmore's stallion, Churchill's 5th dam, is a half-sister to Clantime, and is a "vehicle" herself.

That's incredibly interesting. How did you find Clantime's pedigree? I'm not sure what websites to use. Sometimes when I watch races on TV, I use Pedigree Query for a quick check, but I was told that site isn't super accurate.

Gemini wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 12:45 am

Flanders wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2020 2:25 am While glancing through the stakes results today, I saw Stubbins finished 3rd. I knew who he was, I had never really investigated his pedigree. His broodmare sire, Atraf, caught my eye because I wasn't familiar with his name. I looked at his pedigree and his sire, Clantime, is listed as a NTB. I know NTBs are allowed to race in jump races. Stubbins isn't a jump racer, he is a GSW on the flat. So this really got me curious how he was allowed to race and how was Atraf listed as a thoroughbred?

Clantime is, according to the brief snippet of a book I could read, the only stallion to attain "vehicle" status. A vehicle is an 8th generation of one non-thoroughbred with the rest of the pedigree being thoroughbred. The horse has to be granted the status of "vehicle" and must meet certain criteria, though I'm having a hard time finding the actual rule. When granted the status of "vehicle", all the vehicles foals will be considered thoroughbreds. I never heard of this before and thought it was neat. Another interesting fact, Spinner, Coolmore's stallion, Churchill's 5th dam, is a half-sister to Clantime, and is a "vehicle" herself.

That's incredibly interesting. How did you find Clantime's pedigree? I'm not sure what websites to use. Sometimes when I watch races on TV, I use Pedigree Query for a quick check, but I was told that site isn't super accurate.

Since anyone can edit pedigreequery yes its not 100% accurate, I would say its mostly accurate though. The only thing that is usually wrong is people add fake foals for horses quite a bit so I always double check if they are real, especially if the breeding seems odd. But I still use that site if I want to look up progeny or want to see a list of horses that won a specific race. Even with its flaws its still a great tool for looking up pedigrees.
Equineline is great for just pedigrees since it is owned by the Jockey Club its 100% accurate, they have a free 5x pedigree. http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm

When I saw Atraf as Stubbin's broodmare sire, I first looked on Equineline, saw his sire, Clantime (NTB)-NB and my curiosity was immense. Then I went to pedigreequery and also google searched for information.
His pedigree is kept in the NTB registry of Wetherbys, so they know what it is, the whole way back to sometime in 1700s. It was just the female line wasn't registered with the NTB until 7 generations before him or he was the first horse with real racing ability that got him and his 1/2 sister vehicle status.

Thank you, Flanders-except that now I'm humming "I'm your vehicle, baby/Take you anywhere you wanna go. . ."

Flanders wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 2:35 am

Gemini wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 12:45 am

Flanders wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2020 2:25 am While glancing through the stakes results today, I saw Stubbins finished 3rd. I knew who he was, I had never really investigated his pedigree. His broodmare sire, Atraf, caught my eye because I wasn't familiar with his name. I looked at his pedigree and his sire, Clantime, is listed as a NTB. I know NTBs are allowed to race in jump races. Stubbins isn't a jump racer, he is a GSW on the flat. So this really got me curious how he was allowed to race and how was Atraf listed as a thoroughbred?

Clantime is, according to the brief snippet of a book I could read, the only stallion to attain "vehicle" status. A vehicle is an 8th generation of one non-thoroughbred with the rest of the pedigree being thoroughbred. The horse has to be granted the status of "vehicle" and must meet certain criteria, though I'm having a hard time finding the actual rule. When granted the status of "vehicle", all the vehicles foals will be considered thoroughbreds. I never heard of this before and thought it was neat. Another interesting fact, Spinner, Coolmore's stallion, Churchill's 5th dam, is a half-sister to Clantime, and is a "vehicle" herself.

That's incredibly interesting. How did you find Clantime's pedigree? I'm not sure what websites to use. Sometimes when I watch races on TV, I use Pedigree Query for a quick check, but I was told that site isn't super accurate.

Since anyone can edit pedigreequery yes its not 100% accurate, I would say its mostly accurate though. The only thing that is usually wrong is people add fake foals for horses quite a bit so I always double check if they are real, especially if the breeding seems odd. But I still use that site if I want to look up progeny or want to see a list of horses that won a specific race. Even with its flaws its still a great tool for looking up pedigrees.
Equineline is great for just pedigrees since it is owned by the Jockey Club its 100% accurate, they have a free 5x pedigree. http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm

When I saw Atraf as Stubbin's broodmare sire, I first looked on Equineline, saw his sire, Clantime (NTB)-NB and my curiosity was immense. Then I went to pedigreequery and also google searched for information.
His pedigree is kept in the NTB registry of Wetherbys, so they know what it is, the whole way back to sometime in 1700s. It was just the female line wasn't registered with the NTB until 7 generations before him or he was the first horse with real racing ability that got him and his 1/2 sister vehicle status.

Thanks for that info. Now I wonder how many other TBs out there have these kinds of horses in their pedigrees.

The US doesn't have a formal non-TB racehorse registry like the UK and France do but horses in the NSB/AQPS studbook are allowed to race here.

Fun fact: the American studbook was open to Arabians all the way until 1943, with the horses already registered grandfathered in along with their descendants. The Crabbett Arabian stallion Jedran (1932) still has a few living TB descendants, mainly through his son Courlander.

An interesting case is the Maryland Grand National-winning mare Our Ivory Tower (by Colony Boy) whose dam's pedigree is not on file that I can find. Once you get back to the turn of the 20th century a lot of timber horses didn't have their dams recorded, but seeing "a Peterski mare" as the dam of a horse born in 1961 is weird. Maybe the info is locked in an old studbook somewhere and never managed to find its way to the internet?. Our Ivory Tower produced a few great jumpers (including MD Hunt Cup winner Our Steeplejack) but AFAIK all were geldings.

This is a great thread. I love arcane pedigree info.

Miss Woodford wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 2:23 am "a Peterski mare" as the dam of a horse born in 1961

You see this more and more the farther back you go and I think it is hilarious.

They really couldn't be bothered to think up a name for her, so she just gets christened "Whalebone Filly" or "Filly by The-Ill-Used" or something.

I remember back in the 1960's there was a good handicap horse from New Zealand named Cadiz (or Cadiz II) who raced in California. It was commented that he could not be used for breeding in the U.S. because the N.Z. studbook had some kind of deficiency, or accepted "iffy" horses, or something like that. Can anyone refresh my memory?

Diver52 wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 2:48 pm I remember back in the 1960's there was a good handicap horse from New Zealand named Cadiz (or Cadiz II) who raced in California. It was commented that he could not be used for breeding in the U.S. because the N.Z. studbook had some kind of deficiency, or accepted "iffy" horses, or something like that. Can anyone refresh my memory?

Looking at his pedigree I would guess it was because of Pedometer --> Demeter --> Wallace --> Melodious --> Melody --> The Barb --> Fair Ellen --> Young Gulnare --> Deception --> Cutty Sark --> Colonial Family Three

This family wasn't accepted into the studbook until 1965. http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricDams/ ... es/C3.html

If the regs stipulate only one horse in 8 generations can be non-purebred, we're talking about a 1/256th of the genetic mix. And that non-purebred probably had plenty of TB blood to have been used in the first place.
Not likely that the mixed-blood ancestor was someone's Gypsy Cob mare.

Thanks, Flanders!

Interestingly enough, Pan Zareta's fourth dam Mittie Stephens isn't a full TB.

So this may sound off topic, but I thought of the subject while reading this thread... How come all these palomino and buckskin TBs considered pure-bred when it's obvious none of them can run worth a lick and their backgrounds are questionable?

In what way are their backgrounds questionable? There have been several discussions on this board regarding the potential origins of the color genes in the thoroughbred on this forum, which all pretty much came to the conclusion that odd colors are not as inconceivable as previously thought.

Also, I'm fairly certain all registered horses get blood tests for parentage.

Gemini wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 11:23 pm So this may sound off topic, but I thought of the subject while reading this thread... How come all these palomino and buckskin TBs considered pure-bred when it's obvious none of them can run worth a lick and their backgrounds are questionable?

They could be questionable or they could easily be legit. Its not a question that there were dilutes in the foundation horses of the breed. Darcys Yellow Turk was thought to be palomino or buckskin, then there is Oxford Dun Arabian, Cream Cheeks, etc. Records for colors aren't exactly great for the foundation horses, quite a few don't even have real names. So who knows what colors they really were but many of them were Turks which is essentially the modern Akhal-Teke now. I read that Darcys Yellow Turk had a golden glow in his coat which is exactly what the modern Akhal-Teke looks like and that breed has a lot of palminos and buckskins. Dilutes can hide with smokey black or even buckskin and be registered as black or brown, the palominos as chestnut. They didn't have blood or DNA testing at the time, though you'd think more palominos would have happened than just the handful I can think of (Glitter Please, Milkie and Sylfou) or perhaps they culled the ones that came out obviously palomino during a certain point. When Thoroughbred Times used to exist they had a section at the back of old news articles and there would be mentions of culling horses, even young stock if they didn't like the looks of them. They were just selling them without pedigrees and papers to get them out of the breed. I feel like I read that about loudly marked horses as well at some point as well. But color mutations can happen too, look at the pure white thoroughbreds. They didn't exist either until around the time the palominos started appearing. Or that crazy looking Australian thoroughbred who was brindled. Or Oxbow who looks grey but isn't.

Mylute wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 11:46 pm Also, I'm fairly certain all registered horses get blood tests for parentage.

They do now but I think most of the palominos that the ones I listed above were probably born before they started doing that. Though I'm not sure when blood tests started. They just do DNA testing now.