Horse Racing Forum - USA Thoroughbred Races

Has anyone noticed that AP is looking like a very good turf sire but a bust as a dirt sire? No stake winners on dirt. Only one stakes horse from 42 runners on dirt. Four stakes winners (3 graded) on turf with 10 stakes horses on turf. AP had 14 winners on dirt, but no repeat winners.

Altanbarr wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:55 pm Has anyone noticed that AP is looking like a very good turf sire but a bust as a dirt sire? No stake winners on dirt. Only one stakes horse from 42 runners on dirt. Four stakes winners (3 graded) on turf with 10 stakes horses on turf. AP had 14 winners on dirt, but no repeat winners.

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https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/tdn-sire-stats/?txbYear=2019&crops=0&sbYear=2019&srt=600&nao=3&txbFR=NHB&fr=NHB&ob=1&cy=0&naocy=3&frcy=NHB&obcy=1#tot

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https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/tdn-sire-stats/?txbYear=2019&crops=1&sbYear=2019&srt=500&nao=3&txbFR=NHB&fr=NHB&ob=1&cy=0&naocy=3&frcy=NHB&obcy=1#tot

Maybe it has more to do with A) the mares bred to him, and B) how his offspring have been campaigned.

He got another SP dirt horse with Prince of Pharoahs in the Jerome. I think we'll see more dirt horses by him in 2020. He has some spectacularly bred 3yos that haven't started yet.

Coolmore was built on stallions who could sire runners on turf and dirt. They pioneered it by importing sons of Northern Dancer to win on the turf and stand in Ireland. Then their top American based stallions like Giant's Causeway and Scat Daddy have proved to be able to sire winners on any surface at almost any distance. I think they are setting Pharoah up to be next in line by sending him top turf mares and putting the resulting offspring in training at Ballydoyle.

Maybe he's leaning a little too much on the turf side of things now, but a lot of the most precocious 2 year olds these days are turf sprinters, which is a division that has rapidly expanded on both sides of the Atlantic and is something Pharoah has been able to supply.

Also reminder that in recent times the juvenile turf races have produced Triple Crown and other top dirt stakes runners. Some notable examples include War of Will, Catholic Boy, etc.

mariasmon wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:35 pm Maybe it has more to do with A) the mares bred to him, and B) how his offspring have been campaigned.

I wonder if this was a deliberate move from Coolmore to breed turf mares to AP in his first season. His first Australian yearlings will go through the sale ring next week and it is fair to say with his turf success there is huge hype for his Australian progeny

https://breednet.com.au/news/9043/First ... an-Pharoah

As Flanders notes, AP could turn things around with a few big horses. But, given AP's access to quality mares, no stakes winners and no multiple winners out of 42 runners on dirt should be concerning to those who have invested in AP or his offspring.. Eighteen other first year sires had stakes winners on dirt, many with far fewer dirt runners than AP.

I hope the American Pharoahs are well received at the Magic Millions. There are quite a few lookers but I'm really taken with the Papillon colt.

And I still hold out hope he'll throw a really good main track horse.

American Theorem is back galloping and should breeze soon.

I think AP will do just fine with dirt runners. . . although he did have another turf MSW winner today at SA! (Phast Pharoah.)

Diver52 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:26 pm American Theorem is back galloping and should breeze soon.

I think AP will do just fine with dirt runners. . . although he did have another turf MSW winner today at SA! (Phast Pharoah.)

Good to know about American Theorem -- he has shown potential.

And I finally caught a replay of Phast Pharoah -- goodness, he is certainly one of the darkest liver chestnuts I have ever seen.

Starine wrote: ↑Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:19 pm I hope the American Pharoahs are well received at the Magic Millions. There are quite a few lookers but I'm really taken with the Papillon colt.

And I still hold out hope he'll throw a really good main track horse.

I like the chestnut Jazz Song one, the one out of Peaceful Sea is very racy, and the one out of Derelique looks like dad.

The no winners doesn't paint the whole picture given he has several graded (and even G1) placed runners on dirt, he's knocking on the door, and as some have pointed out, some of his best bred offspring haven't started yet.

Bloodlines Presented By The Virginia Thoroughbred Association: American Pharoah Off To Soaring Start
https://www.paulickreport.com/features/ ... ing-start/

The most surprising aspect of American Pharoah's stud career to date is that all his stakes winners showed their form on turf, with only stakes-placed American Theorem getting a premium placing on dirt. This may mean relatively little in the long run, but the obvious fact that the horse's stock race well on turf has elevated his profile among breeders and buyers in Europe and Australia, where nearly all the racing is on turf. That is going to make the American Pharoah stock all the more popular around the globe, especially if they progress as expected into their second season of racing.

I was looking for the thread "American Pharoah's Children", but could not find it.

I think there enough Pharoah babies out there to determine the success or failure to this wonderful horse

I have to preface my comments with this: I love American Pharoah----- However, I do have to ask this question- is he a
dud at stud? He is 78th in earnings on the sire list----- with 16+ million. I think his first foals looked great but since then
he has not had any really big winners either on turf or dirt. Four Wheel Drive did win a BC sprint but then who knows what happened
to him. It just seems like the really great ones are not real successful stallions (save for Seattle Slew). Thoughts?

barbaro111 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:29 am I was looking for the thread "American Pharoah's Children", but could not find it.

I think there enough Pharoah babies out there to determine the success or failure to this wonderful horse

I have to preface my comments with this: I love American Pharoah----- However, I do have to ask this question- is he a
dud at stud? He is 78th in earnings on the sire list----- with 16+ million. I think his first foals looked great but since then
he has not had any really big winners either on turf or dirt. Four Wheel Drive did win a BC sprint but then who knows what happened
to him. It just seems like the really great ones are not real successful stallions (save for Seattle Slew). Thoughts?

Judging by the mares he got this year, no one's writing him off.

mariasmon wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:49 am

barbaro111 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:29 am I was looking for the thread "American Pharoah's Children", but could not find it.

I think there enough Pharoah babies out there to determine the success or failure to this wonderful horse

I have to preface my comments with this: I love American Pharoah----- However, I do have to ask this question- is he a
dud at stud? He is 78th in earnings on the sire list----- with 16+ million. I think his first foals looked great but since then
he has not had any really big winners either on turf or dirt. Four Wheel Drive did win a BC sprint but then who knows what happened
to him. It just seems like the really great ones are not real successful stallions (save for Seattle Slew). Thoughts?

Judging by the mares he got this year, no one's writing him off.

That's good to know!

mariasmon wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:49 am

barbaro111 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:29 am I was looking for the thread "American Pharoah's Children", but could not find it.

I think there enough Pharoah babies out there to determine the success or failure to this wonderful horse

I have to preface my comments with this: I love American Pharoah----- However, I do have to ask this question- is he a
dud at stud? He is 78th in earnings on the sire list----- with 16+ million. I think his first foals looked great but since then
he has not had any really big winners either on turf or dirt. Four Wheel Drive did win a BC sprint but then who knows what happened
to him. It just seems like the really great ones are not real successful stallions (save for Seattle Slew). Thoughts?

Judging by the mares he got this year, no one's writing him off.

I don't think he is a dud, but I also don't think he is a 6 figure stallion. He has been helped tremendously by a stellar broodmare band, not to mention the best connections in the game in both Europe and America, and his results have just fine. However, unlike some of his compatriots who probably only saw their best mares in the past year or possibly two, it will be hard for him to beat the CI he is currently rocking. It seems his yearling prices are dropping back to realistic levels as well, even with Coolmore still supporting him in the sales rings.

barbaro111 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:29 am I was looking for the thread "American Pharoah's Children", but could not find it.

I think there enough Pharoah babies out there to determine the success or failure to this wonderful horse

I have to preface my comments with this: I love American Pharoah----- However, I do have to ask this question- is he a
dud at stud? He is 78th in earnings on the sire list----- with 16+ million. I think his first foals looked great but since then
he has not had any really big winners either on turf or dirt. Four Wheel Drive did win a BC sprint but then who knows what happened
to him. It just seems like the really great ones are not real successful stallions (save for Seattle Slew). Thoughts?

The thread you are looking for is under Horse Followings: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6704

What sire list are you looking at? He is 13th for the year overall. https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing ... listType=g

I agree that 100k is probably a little high for him but if mares continue to get bred to him, it wont go down. He is doing fine at stud though, his oldest runners are 4. His better runners have been on the turf but he has gotten more dirt SWs this year.
He is 23rd on the dirt sire list with 6 SWs/3 GSWs this year and 4th on the turf sire list with 5 SWs/1 GSW this year.

He also has:
G1SW Harvery's Lil Goil, who finished 3rd in the BC F/M Turf
Cartier Champion 2yo/G1SW Van Gogh
G1SW Cafe Pharoah
MG2 As Time Goes By
G2 Merneith, etc
Also had Nicest finish 3rd in the Irish Oaks(G1) this year

I wonder if he was hindered, rather than helped, by being aimed at proving himself as a turf sire. I think he got quite a few turfy mares as Coolmore tried to establish him abroad? I agree he hasn't been sensational, as Constitutional certainly was with his first crop.

It seems like Coolmore has more heavily supported Justify than they did AP.