Horse Racing Forum - USA Thoroughbred Races

WildAgainFan74 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:26 pm It pains me to look over the current stallion directories. It is horrifying that we have lost good outcross sires. It wasn't that long ago when outcross stallions were valued and successful. In our not too distant past, we had A.P. Indy, Wild Again, Broad Brush, Dynaformer, Rahy, Cozzene. For us regional breeders on budget, we had Runaway Groom, Slew City Slew, and Out of Place in KY. Concorde's Tune, Halo's Image, Skip Trial, Montbrook in FL. We had Desputed testimony, Disco Rico, and Citidancer in the mid-Atlantic. Stalwart, Waquoit, Raffie's Majesty in NY.

I blame the shift in breeding on breeding to sell instead of race. I bred to race. Now, I see all these KY farms offering incentives based on sales. Everything is sales and more sales. The industry pushed for bringing business men and women into the sport. Well, it worked. The downside is that they want a return on their investment and they want it fast. it is all about money. It is not about the love of the horse and the love of the sport. It's not about personal pride of breeding a top winner and passion and dedication. It's about breeding a sales topper. It's about how quickly can they get a return on their investment. Until we make the shift back to breeding to race, the breed will continue to suffer.

The stallions utilized will continue to be unsound, precocious horses with fantastic physicals. The Ghostzappers will prevail. The hard knocking, sound in wind and limb, and nice footed horses who run long and mature slow will continue to disappear. I don't know why there isn't more outrage. I am horrified at the state of affairs regarding breeding today and sad that so many breeders have chosen to focus on the sale horses. Sad. Very sad, indeed.

ElPrado2 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:48 pm Where are they going to stand?

If they don't explode all over the sales ring the stallions end up in Turkey, Korea, Argentina, Saudi Arabia or South Africa by their 4th year at stud.

Northport wrote: ↑Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:44 am In what world do Ghostzappers not run long and mature slow....? I kind of get your argument but he's a pretty terrible example. He's kind of the definition of being unpopular at the sales and having late bloomers. His top progeny are Shaman Ghost (broke his maiden March of his 3 y/o year, won Graded Stakes until he was 5), Moreno (broke maiden June of his 3 y/o year, won Graded Stakes until he was 5), Judy the Beauty (broke maiden in July of 2 y/o year, raced until she was 6, won Graded stakes until she was 5), Holy Helena (broke maiden April of 3 y/o year, is currently winning Graded Stakes as a 5 year old), Paulassilverlining (broke maiden in August of 3 y/o year, won Graded Stakes as a 5 year old), Better Lucky (broke maiden in December of 3/o year, won Graded Stakes as a 4 year old, GSP as a 5 year old).

But, go off I guess.

TBird wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:34 pm

WildAgainFan74 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:26 pm It pains me to look over the current stallion directories. It is horrifying that we have lost good outcross sires. It wasn't that long ago when outcross stallions were valued and successful. In our not too distant past, we had A.P. Indy, Wild Again, Broad Brush, Dynaformer, Rahy, Cozzene. For us regional breeders on budget, we had Runaway Groom, Slew City Slew, and Out of Place in KY. Concorde's Tune, Halo's Image, Skip Trial, Montbrook in FL. We had Desputed testimony, Disco Rico, and Citidancer in the mid-Atlantic. Stalwart, Waquoit, Raffie's Majesty in NY.

I blame the shift in breeding on breeding to sell instead of race. I bred to race. Now, I see all these KY farms offering incentives based on sales. Everything is sales and more sales. The industry pushed for bringing business men and women into the sport. Well, it worked. The downside is that they want a return on their investment and they want it fast. it is all about money. It is not about the love of the horse and the love of the sport. It's not about personal pride of breeding a top winner and passion and dedication. It's about breeding a sales topper. It's about how quickly can they get a return on their investment. Until we make the shift back to breeding to race, the breed will continue to suffer.

The stallions utilized will continue to be unsound, precocious horses with fantastic physicals. The Ghostzappers will prevail. The hard knocking, sound in wind and limb, and nice footed horses who run long and mature slow will continue to disappear. I don't know why there isn't more outrage. I am horrified at the state of affairs regarding breeding today and sad that so many breeders have chosen to focus on the sale horses. Sad. Very sad, indeed.

Since you breed to race, rather than being outraged, you could see this state of affairs as offering you opportunities you might not otherwise have. The current emphasis on the sales give you the chance to breed to hard knocking, racehorse producing, stallions at reasonable prices--because they are not the sales' darlings. Then take your offspring to the track and beat the commercial breeders at their own game. Because that's where quality really gets decided, isn't it? In theory people who are "only" breeding for the sales shouldn't be producing better racehorses than you are. So show them how it should be done.

As for the stallions whose passing you mourn, if you want an AP Indy, breed to Mineshaft or Honor Code. For Wild Again, how about Bayern? Broad Brush is currently well represented by Include. Dynaformer --> Temple City, Cozzene --> Mizzen Mast, etc etc. The diversity is still out there, it just has different names now.

Gemini wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:57 pm I know the Jockey Club remains firmly against AI, but I'm beginning to think AI might be the only way to save some of these rare bloodlines.

swale1984 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:16 pm I've been lurking for a while after taking a (several year) hiatus from posting, but this is a subject near and dear to my heart. I totally concur with the original assessment. I feel like we are seeing the effect of bad breeding practices. The American thoroughbred industry needs to enact some standards for breeding stock. It used to be "breed the best to the best and hope for the best". Now, it seems like it's "breed a precocious but probably unsound stallion to whoever can pay the stud fee".

WildAgainFan74 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:26 pm I blame the shift in breeding on breeding to sell instead of race. I bred to race. Now, I see all these KY farms offering incentives based on sales. Everything is sales and more sales. The industry pushed for bringing business men and women into the sport. Well, it worked. The downside is that they want a return on their investment and they want it fast. it is all about money. It is not about the love of the horse and the love of the sport. It's not about personal pride of breeding a top winner and passion and dedication. It's about breeding a sales topper. It's about how quickly can they get a return on their investment. Until we make the shift back to breeding to race, the breed will continue to suffer.

The stallions utilized will continue to be unsound, precocious horses with fantastic physicals. The Ghostzappers will prevail. The hard knocking, sound in wind and limb, and nice footed horses who run long and mature slow will continue to disappear. I don't know why there isn't more outrage. I am horrified at the state of affairs regarding breeding today and sad that so many breeders have chosen to focus on the sale horses. Sad. Very sad, indeed.

Izvestia wrote: ↑Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:44 pm

Northport wrote: ↑Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:44 am In what world do Ghostzappers not run long and mature slow....? I kind of get your argument but he's a pretty terrible example. He's kind of the definition of being unpopular at the sales and having late bloomers. His top progeny are Shaman Ghost (broke his maiden March of his 3 y/o year, won Graded Stakes until he was 5), Moreno (broke maiden June of his 3 y/o year, won Graded Stakes until he was 5), Judy the Beauty (broke maiden in July of 2 y/o year, raced until she was 6, won Graded stakes until she was 5), Holy Helena (broke maiden April of 3 y/o year, is currently winning Graded Stakes as a 5 year old), Paulassilverlining (broke maiden in August of 3 y/o year, won Graded Stakes as a 5 year old), Better Lucky (broke maiden in December of 3/o year, won Graded Stakes as a 4 year old, GSP as a 5 year old).

But, go off I guess.

Ghostzapper is a terrible example. Agreed.

Honor Code wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:38 pm

WildAgainFan74 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:26 pm I blame the shift in breeding on breeding to sell instead of race. I bred to race. Now, I see all these KY farms offering incentives based on sales. Everything is sales and more sales. The industry pushed for bringing business men and women into the sport. Well, it worked. The downside is that they want a return on their investment and they want it fast. it is all about money. It is not about the love of the horse and the love of the sport. It's not about personal pride of breeding a top winner and passion and dedication. It's about breeding a sales topper. It's about how quickly can they get a return on their investment. Until we make the shift back to breeding to race, the breed will continue to suffer.

The stallions utilized will continue to be unsound, precocious horses with fantastic physicals. The Ghostzappers will prevail. The hard knocking, sound in wind and limb, and nice footed horses who run long and mature slow will continue to disappear. I don't know why there isn't more outrage. I am horrified at the state of affairs regarding breeding today and sad that so many breeders have chosen to focus on the sale horses. Sad. Very sad, indeed.

Horses are expensive. Horse Racing wasn't called the Sports of Kings for nothing. And today, people actually want returns in horse racing. The people who race horses as a hobby are in the minorities. When the Dupont's, Wrights and their ilk were racing horses, I can promise that racing was a continuous loss financially. Now, the stud market means people can actually earn some profit. The market now reflects the change in owners' expectations.

And as the market favours precocity, the races that attract owners are also the shorter ones for younger horses. There are many races that are no longer marquee races-and lo and behold, they're all the longer ones for older horses. The Lawerence Realization used to be 1.5 mi. The Woodward used to be 1.5mi. Whitney used to be 1.25mi. The Brooklyn Handicap only returned to being 1.5mi in 2008. But more importantly, no one aims their top horses at these races.

Unless the buyers decide they want to race for longevity and sport rather than financial return, the direction of the current market is by no means going to change. Complaining about the state of the sales and comparative fragility of the horses is putting the cart before the horse.

WildAgainFan74 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:43 am

Honor Code wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:38 pm

WildAgainFan74 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:26 pm I blame the shift in breeding on breeding to sell instead of race. I bred to race. Now, I see all these KY farms offering incentives based on sales. Everything is sales and more sales. The industry pushed for bringing business men and women into the sport. Well, it worked. The downside is that they want a return on their investment and they want it fast. it is all about money. It is not about the love of the horse and the love of the sport. It's not about personal pride of breeding a top winner and passion and dedication. It's about breeding a sales topper. It's about how quickly can they get a return on their investment. Until we make the shift back to breeding to race, the breed will continue to suffer.

The stallions utilized will continue to be unsound, precocious horses with fantastic physicals. The Ghostzappers will prevail. The hard knocking, sound in wind and limb, and nice footed horses who run long and mature slow will continue to disappear. I don't know why there isn't more outrage. I am horrified at the state of affairs regarding breeding today and sad that so many breeders have chosen to focus on the sale horses. Sad. Very sad, indeed.

Horses are expensive. Horse Racing wasn't called the Sports of Kings for nothing. And today, people actually want returns in horse racing. The people who race horses as a hobby are in the minorities. When the Dupont's, Wrights and their ilk were racing horses, I can promise that racing was a continuous loss financially. Now, the stud market means people can actually earn some profit. The market now reflects the change in owners' expectations.

And as the market favours precocity, the races that attract owners are also the shorter ones for younger horses. There are many races that are no longer marquee races-and lo and behold, they're all the longer ones for older horses. The Lawerence Realization used to be 1.5 mi. The Woodward used to be 1.5mi. Whitney used to be 1.25mi. The Brooklyn Handicap only returned to being 1.5mi in 2008. But more importantly, no one aims their top horses at these races.

Unless the buyers decide they want to race for longevity and sport rather than financial return, the direction of the current market is by no means going to change. Complaining about the state of the sales and comparative fragility of the horses is putting the cart before the horse.

I must, respectfully, disagree. Everything you wrote is not new to me as I was a breeder and raced. I have been involved in the breed for a very long time. However, my point is that there was a shift in marketing to businesspeople and new owners. The shift, at the time, was a HUGE push towards partnerships. It was no longer about the horse person or lover that got involved in racing. A lot of racing and breeding was a family generation thing and us small farms were the glue that held the industry together. Or, shall we say...us regional breeders on small farms. However, the push towards expensive partnerships caused the shift. These partnerships became massive and brought in new blood but also changed the parameters of racing and breeding and sales and not for the better. We have yet to recover.

What people don't understand is if we lose bloodlines because they are no longer in fashion than that's it. Once bloodlines are gone, they can never be brought back. If the industry continues to breed 4 career starters to 4 career starters because they make good sale horses than the breed will continue to decline. I have seen horses that were 3 or 4 crosses to Mr. Prospector now!

In terms of drugs, when they first allowed lasix they argued it would help increase field sizes and number of starts. But, both have gone down. the use of bute on raceday is just as bad. Trust me, I have seen it! I bet over 50% of current breeding horses couldn't race without drugs. It will certainly be interesting to see who can truly run without drugs and who can't. I think it should also be made public if a breeding horse had a severe deficiency in wind that required surgery but I doubt it will be. That would take out another 10% or so.

We are at the point now where breeding has backed us into a corner. Racing fans might not be concerned because they can still bet. But, breeders and lovers of the breed should be concerned.

Flanders wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:14 pm If the stallion line survives somewhere in the world there is always the possibility it could make a comeback in the US. I mean look at the Halo line. His line is surviving in the US, because Southern Halo was reverse shuttled to the US for a few seasons and sired More Than Ready while he stood here. Plus I would imagine WinStar plans to stand Yoshida so the Sunday Silence line should get another chance in the US. There was a point when it looked like the Crytoclearance line was done in the US but Candy Ride was imported and revitalized again. It just takes one good horse to revive a line.

I've seen horses imported from Turkey and South Korea in the past couple years. Countries that buy the cast off stallions to improve their own breeding stock are the places that are going to keep a line alive.