Horse Racing Forum - USA Thoroughbred Races

So, with Pharoah's fee announced and seeing some others jump up in fee (Scat Daddy for $100k?!? )

How is a mare's "worth" determined in what stallion she can (or should) visit? Is it really about the almighty dollar in some cases and any idiot with $200k can ship his $2500 maiden claimer mare with blacktype 3 gens back over to Pharoah and expect a cover?

Would love any of you who have a mare and are going through the stallion selection process to share your thoughts. (is TBird still posting here?)

Well I'm pretty sure the stallion's owners (management team) decide which mares they will allow to be covered by their stallion. So I doubt anyone can just breed a $2500 claimer to American Pharoah, he needs a good book of mares.

carole wrote:Well I'm pretty sure the stallion's owners (management team) decide which mares they will allow to be covered by their stallion. So I doubt anyone can just breed a $2500 claimer to American Pharoah, he needs a good book of mares.

It happens, though. Maybe not at the Pharoah level... Look at the page on Stormy Sunday, dam of Hansen. How in the hell did they get Stormy Sunday under Tapit (albeit his fee was what, $12500 back then?)

http://apps.keeneland.com/sales/Nov15/pdfs/445.pdf

bare it all wrote:

carole wrote:Well I'm pretty sure the stallion's owners (management team) decide which mares they will allow to be covered by their stallion. So I doubt anyone can just breed a $2500 claimer to American Pharoah, he needs a good book of mares.

It happens, though. Maybe not at the Pharoah level... Look at the page on Stormy Sunday, dam of Hansen. How in the hell did they get Stormy Sunday under Tapit (albeit his fee was what, $12500 back then?)

http://apps.keeneland.com/sales/Nov15/pdfs/445.pdf

As you said, though, that was back before Tapit was Tapit.

The mare owners decide what kind of stud fee they think is wise to put into the mare. They submit an application and either are accepted or rejected. In addition, there are relationships at work that can perhaps get you into a stallion where someone else may have a more difficult time getting to. Also, there could be some deals going on as well, like the farm allowing you to breed to a popular stallion if you could bring a mare to a less popular stallion.

With the lower-end stallions, they may have to take any mare with 4 legs just to get numbers. The better the stallion, the more picky they can get about who they will allow.

I think that for the high end stallions- like Tapit- or a first book- AP- they also looks at the mares page. Lots of black type and if the mare is a producer (graded winners) that gets you in the shed so to speak. Of course, doing well on the track doesn't hurt either.

on top of that, maybe you and i have to pay 200k but the bigger farms that send 5-6 mares to him (Gainsway etc) will not pay 200k each mare. Some interesting deals going on ...

Some farms will "trade" breedings as well. So Gainesway will have some Distorted Humor/Medaglia d'Oro babies running around while WinStar and Darley have some Tapit/Empire Makers.

dubai-millennium wrote:on top of that, maybe you and i have to pay 200k but the bigger farms that send 5-6 mares to him (Gainsway etc) will not pay 200k each mare. Some interesting deals going on ...

I don't ever hear of those deals. If Tapit can book full at the full rate, why would you give a quantity discount? That is done a lot with lower end stallions though.

Admin wrote:

dubai-millennium wrote:on top of that, maybe you and i have to pay 200k but the bigger farms that send 5-6 mares to him (Gainsway etc) will not pay 200k each mare. Some interesting deals going on ...

I don't ever hear of those deals. If Tapit can book full at the full rate, why would you give a quantity discount? That is done a lot with lower end stallions though.

Yeah. Gainesway doesn't have to pay anyway since they own 33% of him.
Ken Ramsey said he couldn't get a deal done for Tapit and had to pay full price. He said that was the only stallion he had to pay for, all the others he used, he traded Kitten's Joy seasons for.

So lets take the high end out of it. It's pretty easy to determine a mare who's a multiple graded winner with any pedigree will go to a proper well ranked stallion. How do you determine if your maiden mare deserves a $5k stud or a $20k stud? Or I guess, how does the stallion manager or the breeding consultant decide?

The old rule of thumb is that you bred a mare to a stallion whose fee = 1/5th of the mare's value. And the foal sold well if it went for more than 3x the stud fee (now it is 2.5x the stud fee, I think)

So, If you had a mare worth $30,000, the top stud fee you should spend is $30,000/5 = $6,000. And a good sale would be $6,000 x 3 = $18,000

Lord Helpus wrote:The old rule of thumb is that you bred a mare to a stallion whose fee = 1/5th of the mare's value. And the foal sold well if it went for more than 3x the stud fee (now it is 2.5x the stud fee, I think)

So, If you had a mare worth $30,000, the top stud fee you should spend is $30,000/5 = $6,000. And a good sale would be $6,000 x 3 = $18,000

That's what I was looking for LH! Thank you.

And from the stud fees posting.... the next 2-3 years might be interesting in the sales and breeding side.