Horse Racing Forum - USA Thoroughbred Races

I was looking at the peds of some top promising young stallions. I am seeing they are bred triple Northern Dancer. It will be hard to find a lot of Northern Dancer free mares. Most mares have at least one or two crosses to Northern Dancer. I am curious if people have seen up to 5 crosses to Northern Dancer before. Maybe Europe? Any soundness issues?

Northern Dancer - by Neartic out of Natalma by Native Dancer

Mr. Prospector - by Raise a Native (by Native Dancer) out of Gold Digger by Nashua

Seems like the vast majority of horses bred in North America, Great Britain and Ireland (if not the vast majority elsewhere) are heavily line bred to Native Dancer. Mostly, though certainly not exclusively, through one or both of these two sires.

Going just a little bit further back, the vast majority of horses on the planet today have multiple crosses of the Phalaris male line through Nearco and his descendants, Native Dancer and his descendents, and others too numerous to mention.

In my opinion, the best source of outcrosses for North American, British and Irish horses within a 5-generation pedigree today is Germany.

Not only in Germany.
Australian Mossman have Northern Dancer one time in 5th generation, but is ideal for outcross

http://www.blacktypepedigree.com/articl ... to-survive

Only example I can think of is a yearling filly by Giant's Causeway out of Sweeter Still. The dam had four crosses of ND and was a stakes winner. Not terribly helpful, I know.

Yeah, I am looking at Paynter and Oxbow among others…. 3 crosses to Northern Dancer within 5 generations with a Mr Prospector. So, potentially, their foals will have 4 or 5 or possibly 6 crosses to Northern Dancer. Of course, outcross would be best but I would venture the majority of mares are Northern Dancer or ND/MP bred….especially commercial mares.

Of course, we already have double MP stallions with 2 or 3 crosses to Northern Dancer.

I know I have gotten on my soapbox about US breeders breeding themselves into a corner with the lack of outcross blood. I guess only time will tell what they potential triple MP/5 or 6 cross ND will be like. Heck, maybe they will be as sound as hell!! I hope so!!

I just don't thinks e have ever seen it in our lifetime. for example…someone takes a young Flower Alley mare to Oxbow. Yikes!!!

You're right. American breeders HAVE put themselves in a corner. I did a preliminary search, and the first stallion I found that is completely free of ND and RAN is Lewis Michael.

racingfan wrote:Yeah, I am looking at Paynter and Oxbow among others…. 3 crosses to Northern Dancer within 5 generations with a Mr Prospector. So, potentially, their foals will have 4 or 5 or possibly 6 crosses to Northern Dancer. Of course, outcross would be best but I would venture the majority of mares are Northern Dancer or ND/MP bred….especially commercial mares.

I'm not as convinced as you are that the American mare population is overwhelmed with crosses to Northern Dancer (2 and 3 per mare!) A quick look at a very random sample (my mares) reveals:
one mare with no ND in her pedigree
one with one cross in the 5th generation (6th generation in a foal)
two with one cross in the 4th generation (5th in a foal)
one (obviously older mare) whose grandsire is ND

It's not a hardship for me to find stallions to breed them to. I would imagine that most breeders feel the same.

Tbird…I said commercial mares which is what those young stallions will see…..guessing you breed to race with your mare band? I, too, had a similar mare base but I didn't breed to sell!

If you wanted to take a bet with me on the majority…say 90%…of mares Oxbow and Paynter see will be Northern Dancer bred than I will gladly take that bet as being accurate!!!

Just flip through any catalog (early books where young sires are) and check out mare base and find how many are bred to outcross mares…Just saying'!!!!

racingfan wrote:Tbird…I said commercial mares which is what those young stallions will see…..guessing you breed to race with your mare band? I, too, had a similar mare base but I didn't breed to sell!

My mares would be shocked to hear that they're not commercial, lol.

Doubt it!! lol

Mine weren't!!! They said ….Damn right!!!

racingfan wrote:
Just flip through any catalog (early books where young sires are) and check out mare base and find how many are bred to outcross mares…Just saying'!!!!

I'm not trying to pick on you--I'm just trying to disagree. I don't think that U.S. breeding is overrun with Northern Dancer, and that if you do have a mare with ND up close, there are good ways to avoid him.

Shriek! Wow, it seems like she just retired...she has three foals already. Are you keeping her half sister by Lemon Drop Kid, TBird? I saw she's named.

Umm...sorry for the OTness. XD I was just struck by how much time has pasted when I saw Shriek's name...

Allspice, yes, we're keeping the yearling filly by Lemon Drop Kid (All Aces). We also ended up scratching the Pulpit half-sister from last year's sale and keeping her. She's now named Larking.

Ok, Tbird!!! I will take that bet and we'll see what their books look like……:-)

You proved my point completely..all your fillies are Northern Dancer/MP bred. So, that is exactly my point. That most mares will be Northern Dancer Bred like yours when they go to stallions that have triple northern Dancer. Obviously, you don't tend to breed to young stallions but you know as well as I that we are in the minority.

My most commercial breeding is a SW mare that is a Listed SP producer and maternal 1/2 to Champion bred to City Zip. Filly is now in Ocala training. Most of my breedings have always been to race…Cozzene, Concerto, Stephen Got Even out of outcross mares like Wild Again, etc.

But, I also know what is out there for commercial mares and I know you will be hard pressed to find even a 1/4 of the mares that are outcrosses. We'll see what Oxbow and Paynter's books look like and talk then!!

I dont see it being a problem at all in the US. Europe is in big trouble, I think, with that issue. Breeding Sadlers Wells sons and daughters to Danehill sons and daughters, they are way more ND saturated than we are. Look at our top sires. Tapit has a couple of crosses thru Nijinsky so far back they fall off the page. Candy Ride has a single cross in his 5th generation, so that falls off the page on his foals. Malibu Moon has a single cross in his 5th generation, Giants Causeway has a single cross to ND, hot youngster Pioneerof the Nile has a single cross in his 4th generation.

I think you are worried about a problem that just isnt there. You've got as much chance as doubling up on a lot of other horses as you do Northern Dancer. By the time its in the 5th or 6th generation, how much effect do you think it even has?

racingfan wrote: You proved my point completely..all your fillies are Northern Dancer/MP bred. So, that is exactly my point. That most mares will be Northern Dancer Bred like yours when they go to stallions that have triple northern Dancer. Obviously, you don't tend to breed to young stallions but you know as well as I that we are in the minority.

Racingfan, I don't see how I could have "proved your point completely" when your point seems to have changed completely.

This is your oirginal declaration (from p. 1, post 1) that I was replying to:

I was looking at the peds of some top promising young stallions. I am seeing they are bred triple Northern Dancer. It will be hard to find a lot of Northern Dancer free mares. Most mares have at least one or two crosses to Northern Dancer. I am curious if people have seen up to 5 crosses to Northern Dancer before. Maybe Europe? Any soundness issues?

I also wonder if you have me confused with someone else as my breeding program doesn't seem to match your characterization of it. While I prefer proven stallions, I have also supported a number of unproven horses in their early years including such horses as Street Cry, Hard Spun, Blame, Street Boss, and Gio Ponti. We have a Creative Cause colt this year and will be breeding a mare to Animal Kingdom.

TBird wrote:Allspice, yes, we're keeping the yearling filly by Lemon Drop Kid (All Aces). We also ended up scratching the Pulpit half-sister from last year's sale and keeping her. She's now named Larking.

Cool. I hope they do well for you.

I also don't quite understand where racingfan is coming from...the top sire from last year, Kitten's Joy, only passes one cross of Northern Dancer to his foals, and no Mr. Prospector. My boy Giant's Causeway is the same. As is Medaglia d'Oro. And that was just a cursory glance down the general sires list.

There are quite a few horses with a lot of Northern Dancer but there are still some top stallions with very little of him too.

Toast of New York, the winner of the UAE Derby (G2) today, has five crosses of ND, all through sons (Nureyev, Sadler's Wells, Danzig, Be My Guest, and Lyphard).