Pedigree Talk

[Mylute]

Came across this guy in the pedigree of a colt by Drain the Clock.

Believe It - 1975. (In Reality × Breakfast Bell, by Buckpasser)

Won the 1978 Wood Memorial, was third behind Affirmed and Alydar in the 1978 Derby and Preakness. Won the Remsen and Heritage at two. Retired to Claiborne before moving to Louisiana, then Florida, then back to Louisiana where he died at Clear Creek Stud in 2002.

He sired several G1Ws and is the damsire of Real Quiet, so he's not exactly unknown, but I wanted to mention him anyway because you don't often see him in pedigrees nonetheless.

[Flanders]

Came across this guy in the pedigree of a colt by Drain the Clock.

Believe It - 1975. (In Reality × Breakfast Bell, by Buckpasser)

Won the 1978 Wood Memorial, was third behind Affirmed and Alydar in the 1978 Derby and Preakness. Won the Remsen and Heritage at two. Retired to Claiborne before moving to Louisiana, then Florida, then back to Louisiana where he died at Clear Creek Stud in 2002.

He sired several G1Ws and is the damsire of Real Quiet, so he's not exactly unknown, but I wanted to mention him anyway because you don't often see him in pedigrees nonetheless.

Can you imagine the reaction a farm would get for selling on a 23yo stallion today? I mean the syndicate would have been who sold him but the farm would get the bad social media reaction.

I remember him being on their roster though, as the late 90s was when I first got TB Times magazine. He had at least a handful of sons at stud around the country. The two I remember the most, because I saw them race on television, were Rock Point (who finished 3rd to Sunday Silence and Easy Goer in the epic 1989 Preakness) and then Reality Road who won a couple Graded Stakes in the mid-late 90s(and then unfortunately was one of the stallions that died in the horrible stallion barn fire at Meadowbrook Farm in FL in 2003). Believe It's best known runner would have been Al Mamoon, who stood in California and was before my time, but I remember his daughter Onceinabluemamoon, a former claimer who became a G2SW. Anytime I hear the saying "Once In A Blue Moon" I think of her.

[Psychotic Parakeet]

Can you imagine the reaction a farm would get for selling on a 23yo stallion today? I mean the syndicate would have been who sold him but the farm would get the bad social media reaction.

The sire of a filly I owned ended up in a kill pen. He was 24 years old. His name was Silver Ray. I believe he was rescued for less than $50.00, rehabbed, and was eventually sent to Old Friends. He lived to see his 30th year. Just downright shameful that he was dumped like that because he did not produce anything of note.

[Flanders]

Can you imagine the reaction a farm would get for selling on a 23yo stallion today? I mean the syndicate would have been who sold him but the farm would get the bad social media reaction.

The sire of a filly I owned ended up in a kill pen. He was 24 years old. His name was Silver Ray. I believe he was rescued for less than $50.00, rehabbed, and was eventually sent to Old Friends. He lived to see his 30th year. Just downright shameful that he was dumped like that because he did not produce anything of note.

Yeah its sad that it happens. Unfortunately it happens more to regional sires that move around a lot. Ones that aren't advertised, they trade hands a lot, no one knows where they are, then they just show up at a kill pen auction. Same thing happened to The Deputy in 2021 at age 24, he was saved too.

[HB1994]

This is a great interview with A0B. The details of training the progeny of Galileo, Danehill, etc., is fascinating.

'Justify could be the best ever' – picking Aidan O'Brien's brains about breeding

https://www.racingpost.com/bloodstock/n ... EN0a5ag65/

“The Storm Cats were sharp. Mad with it, though. They would go through a wall, they had no self-preservation whatsoever. They were quick, strong and powerful, but mad. I’d say if they were in the wild there’d be no stopping them. You’d know a Storm Cat by their traits, without having to look at the pedigree. You still see it in horses with him on their pages.”

[Missbeholder]

This is a great interview with A0B. The details of training the progeny of Galileo, Danehill, etc., is fascinating.

'Justify could be the best ever' – picking Aidan O'Brien's brains about breeding

https://www.racingpost.com/bloodstock/n ... EN0a5ag65/

“The Storm Cats were sharp. Mad with it, though. They would go through a wall, they had no self-preservation whatsoever. They were quick, strong and powerful, but mad. I’d say if they were in the wild there’d be no stopping them. You’d know a Storm Cat by their traits, without having to look at the pedigree. You still see it in horses with him on their pages.”

That was really a great read!! Thanks so much for posting!

[Psychotic Parakeet]

Not sure where to really post this, but I thought it would be of interest here. Was reading an old DRF article about Unusual Heat, and how Harris and Valpredo really regret how much bad investments were made on stallions that stood within California. Valpredo stated that the "California breeding dug itself into a hole many years ago and has never fully recovered." I got a bit curious about this, and did a comparison from my 1982 CA TB Stallion Register listings versus today's. In 2024, we have 96 stallion listings. Back in 1982, there were 742 active listings. Yes, 742. Although there was pedigree diversity, the majority of it were horses that really were overpriced and/or really had no business of standing stud. Valpredo mentioned "bad stallions" like Obraztsovy, Gunter, King of Kings, Traditionalist, and Exploding. Add-on the mention of that people had their hearts in the right place, but got caught up in the moment of trying to strike it rich with the stud business.

I did more research, and we apparently hit a peak USA foal crop of 50k+ foals during the mid-80s for three years straight, and then it has been gradually tailing off. This year's projected crop is supposed to be what 1965's crop number was. Just crazy how much has changed.

[Flanders]

Not sure where to really post this, but I thought it would be of interest here. Was reading an old DRF article about Unusual Heat, and how Harris and Valpredo really regret how much bad investments were made on stallions that stood within California. Valpredo stated that the "California breeding dug itself into a hole many years ago and has never fully recovered." I got a bit curious about this, and did a comparison from my 1982 CA TB Stallion Register listings versus today's. In 2024, we have 96 stallion listings. Back in 1982, there were 742 active listings. Yes, 742. Although there was pedigree diversity, the majority of it were horses that really were overpriced and/or really had no business of standing stud. Valpredo mentioned "bad stallions" like Obraztsovy, Gunter, King of Kings, Traditionalist, and Exploding. Add-on the mention of that people had their hearts in the right place, but got caught up in the moment of trying to strike it rich with the stud business.

I did more research, and we apparently hit a peak USA foal crop of 50k+ foals during the mid-80s for three years straight, and then it has been gradually tailing off. This year's projected crop is supposed to be what 1965's crop number was. Just crazy how much has changed.

Being a pedigree person, I had to look up those stallions listed as "bad stallions". I've never heard of any of them before, I mean King of Kings sounded familiar and I guarantee I've seen his name before since he is Exclusive Native's 1/2 brother but I was more familiar with the MG1SW with the same name by Sadler's Wells. Exploding must have been super bad because pedigreequery doesn't even have any foals listed by him.

I wonder how much the rising value of land in California has contributed to the drop off in foal crop there or if it was more the factor of the pre-bloodstock burst hype and too many people lost money or just a combination. I'm using JC stats here but in 1991(this is the earliest) California(753) and Texas(579) both had more stallions than stood in Kentucky(499). Texas didn't even have that many live foals born in 2021(the last year they have data for).

This data is 1991-2021 and can look at individual years:
Foal crops by state: https://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp? ... =FB&area=4
Stallions/mares bred by state: https://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp? ... =FB&area=3

Since 1991 its kind of wild to see that mares serviced in Kentucky has actually gone up. While everywhere else has gone down significantly. Kentucky only produced 19% of the US foal crop in 1991 while in 2021 they produced 44.8%. If I look at my collection of stallion directories, there is a very noticeable difference of during the bloodstock bubble and after the bloodstock bubble burst. The stallions directories were twice as big before. Like I said in the other thread, Gainesway had 46 stallions in 1982.

[BaroqueAgain1]

IMHO, California's cost of land and living are likely factors. Flat, tillable lands suitable for raising livestock near any city are now too valuable to stay agricultural.
California has also been in the midst of a long drought, which makes it more costly to grow/truck in livestock feed. Kentucky, on the other hand, naturally and abundantly grows excellent grass.
If I were a horse, I'd rather grow up in Kentucky, too.

[Flanders]

When I was looking for something I found this article from the Washington Post that said in 1989 Lost Code was supposed to enter stud in California at Cardiff Stud. But he was rejected because he didn't pass a vet exam. He would enter stud at Vinery in Kentucky standing there for quite a few years before eventually moving to Virginia. I don't remember any colts he sired but I do remember some fillies. Kalookan Queen who I'm pretty sure was a Bruce Headley mare around the time of Kona Gold. Jacody, Morris Code, Tricky Code(dam of Hat Trick(JPN). Jacody only raced in 1993 at age 3, starting 11 times, she was a pretty nice filly and I liked her. She was sold for supposedly $1m to Saudi Arabia but only looks like she produced one named foal and like 4-5 that were unnamed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... f84b7f7b6/

Does anyone remember that or know why he was rejected? I just find stuff like this interesting. Like how Halo was refused by the French stud that was going to purchase him because he was a cribber. And how little things like that can change the breed. I'm not saying Lost Code changed the breed but he did have an impact, specifically through Hat Trick(JPN), though its mostly outside the US.

[Psychotic Parakeet]

Being a pedigree person, I had to look up those stallions listed as "bad stallions". I've never heard of any of them before, I mean King of Kings sounded familiar and I guarantee I've seen his name before since he is Exclusive Native's 1/2 brother but I was more familiar with the MG1SW with the same name by Sadler's Wells. Exploding must have been super bad because pedigreequery doesn't even have any foals listed by him.

I wonder how much the rising value of land in California has contributed to the drop off in foal crop there or if it was more the factor of the pre-bloodstock burst hype and too many people lost money or just a combination. I'm using JC stats here but in 1991(this is the earliest) California(753) and Texas(579) both had more stallions than stood in Kentucky(499). Texas didn't even have that many live foals born in 2021(the last year they have data for).

This data is 1991-2021 and can look at individual years:
Foal crops by state: https://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp? ... =FB&area=4
Stallions/mares bred by state: https://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp? ... =FB&area=3

Since 1991 its kind of wild to see that mares serviced in Kentucky has actually gone up. While everywhere else has gone down significantly. Kentucky only produced 19% of the US foal crop in 1991 while in 2021 they produced 44.8%. If I look at my collection of stallion directories, there is a very noticeable difference of during the bloodstock bubble and after the bloodstock bubble burst. The stallions directories were twice as big before. Like I said in the other thread, Gainesway had 46 stallions in 1982.

I think a combination of cashing-in on skyrocketing land value with non-turbulent weather along with trying to catch the next best thing stud-wise were the two main factors of CA's industry decline. Studs like *Khaled, *Beau Pere, *Alibhai, T.V. Lark, Fleet Nasrullah, Gummo, In Excess (IRE), Pirate's Bounty, Naevus, Flying Paster, Bertrando, and Unusual Heat were either keystones to the overall breed itself (I consider *Beau Pere to be #1) and/or significant regional boosts for California. I noticed several family-owned farms dissolved their business when their grandparents or parents died, too. The current generation seems to not be interested in continuing on the business, and I don't blame them one bit.

The advent of breeding 100+ mares to the trending sires is really destroying the small farms off. I'm sickened that the Jockey Club backed down from trying to do the right thing to prevent oversaturation of bloodlines. I think it is already too late. This year's projected foal crop total will match to nearly 1965's total. Try to find an outcross that doesn't contain Storm Cat, A.P. Indy, Into Mischief, Tapit, Mr. Prospector, Northern Dancer, or Giant's Causeway. I believe Mizzen Mast one of the few examples of being a complete outcross, and it is too bad he is pensioned. With the market flooded with about five or so trending sires, a shrinking horse population, and revolving door of selling the top mares to overseas farms... we are screwed. Too bad the sheet avarice from the obvious farms are too myopic to see what is happening.

[Psychotic Parakeet]

When I was looking for something I found this article from the Washington Post that said in 1989 Lost Code was supposed to enter stud in California at Cardiff Stud. But he was rejected because he didn't pass a vet exam. He would enter stud at Vinery in Kentucky standing there for quite a few years before eventually moving to Virginia. I don't remember any colts he sired but I do remember some fillies. Kalookan Queen who I'm pretty sure was a Bruce Headley mare around the time of Kona Gold. Jacody, Morris Code, Tricky Code(dam of Hat Trick(JPN). Jacody only raced in 1993 at age 3, starting 11 times, she was a pretty nice filly and I liked her. She was sold for supposedly $1m to Saudi Arabia but only looks like she produced one named foal and like 4-5 that were unnamed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... f84b7f7b6/

Does anyone remember that or know why he was rejected? I just find stuff like this interesting. Like how Halo was refused by the French stud that was going to purchase him because he was a cribber. And how little things like that can change the breed. I'm not saying Lost Code changed the breed but he did have an impact, specifically through Hat Trick(JPN), though its mostly outside the US.

I think he had ejaculatory issues, which is why Cardiff Stud gave up on wanting to have him stand stud at their farm. I will have to go through a couple of my CA Thoroughbred magazines from around around that time period to confirm.

[Flanders]

I was looking at Catching Freedom's pedigree. His 5th, April Dawn Marie, has a very unusual broodmare sire in Waking Dawn. He was a winner of 3 of 19 starts, no stakes wins or places. He only sired 11 foals, 9 starters, 6 winners, no stakes winners. He was the sire of at least one Stakes placed winner, in First of Dawn, the dam of April Dawn Marie. April Dawn Marie is his only Stakes Winner as a broodmare sire, being as he only had 5 daughters that had foals, producing a total of 18 foals, 12 starters, 8 winners.

The female descendants of April Dawn Marie have produced Graded/Group Stakes winners in at least the US, Canada and Japan, a Group placed SW in France and a Group placed winner in Australia. Pretty neat to see a random stallion with so few foals in pedigrees around the world.

Here is Catching Freedom's Keeneland sale page so I don't have to type everything if people are interested in some of the descendants of his 4th dam: http://apps.keeneland.com/sales/Sep22/pdfs/172.pdf

[mahubah]

Came across this guy in the pedigree of a colt by Drain the Clock.

Believe It - 1975. (In Reality × Breakfast Bell, by Buckpasser)

Won the 1978 Wood Memorial, was third behind Affirmed and Alydar in the 1978 Derby and Preakness. Won the Remsen and Heritage at two. Retired to Claiborne before moving to Louisiana, then Florida, then back to Louisiana where he died at Clear Creek Stud in 2002.

He sired several G1Ws and is the damsire of Real Quiet, so he's not exactly unknown, but I wanted to mention him anyway because you don't often see him in pedigrees nonetheless.

Can you imagine the reaction a farm would get for selling on a 23yo stallion today? I mean the syndicate would have been who sold him but the farm would get the bad social media reaction.

I remember him being on their roster though, as the late 90s was when I first got TB Times magazine. He had at least a handful of sons at stud around the country. The two I remember the most, because I saw them race on television, were Rock Point (who finished 3rd to Sunday Silence and Easy Goer in the epic 1989 Preakness) and then Reality Road who won a couple Graded Stakes in the mid-late 90s(and then unfortunately was one of the stallions that died in the horrible stallion barn fire at Meadowbrook Farm in FL in 2003). Believe It's best known runner would have been Al Mamoon, who stood in California and was before my time, but I remember his daughter Onceinabluemamoon, a former claimer who became a G2SW. Anytime I hear the saying "Once In A Blue Moon" I think of her.

Believe It also sired 1987 KY Oaks winner Buryyourbelief, who unfortunately died on the track as a 4-year-old.

[Psychotic Parakeet]

Not sure where to really post this, but I thought it would be of interest here. Was reading an old DRF article about Unusual Heat, and how Harris and Valpredo really regret how much bad investments were made on stallions that stood within California. Valpredo stated that the "California breeding dug itself into a hole many years ago and has never fully recovered." I got a bit curious about this, and did a comparison from my 1982 CA TB Stallion Register listings versus today's. In 2024, we have 96 stallion listings. Back in 1982, there were 742 active listings. Yes, 742. Although there was pedigree diversity, the majority of it were horses that really were overpriced and/or really had no business of standing stud. Valpredo mentioned "bad stallions" like Obraztsovy, Gunter, King of Kings, Traditionalist, and Exploding. Add-on the mention of that people had their hearts in the right place, but got caught up in the moment of trying to strike it rich with the stud business.

I did more research, and we apparently hit a peak USA foal crop of 50k+ foals during the mid-80s for three years straight, and then it has been gradually tailing off. This year's projected crop is supposed to be what 1965's crop number was. Just crazy how much has changed.

Being a pedigree person, I had to look up those stallions listed as "bad stallions". I've never heard of any of them before, I mean King of Kings sounded familiar and I guarantee I've seen his name before since he is Exclusive Native's 1/2 brother but I was more familiar with the MG1SW with the same name by Sadler's Wells. Exploding must have been super bad because pedigreequery doesn't even have any foals listed by him.

I wonder how much the rising value of land in California has contributed to the drop off in foal crop there or if it was more the factor of the pre-bloodstock burst hype and too many people lost money or just a combination. I'm using JC stats here but in 1991(this is the earliest) California(753) and Texas(579) both had more stallions than stood in Kentucky(499). Texas didn't even have that many live foals born in 2021(the last year they have data for).

This data is 1991-2021 and can look at individual years:
Foal crops by state: https://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp? ... =FB&area=4
Stallions/mares bred by state: https://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp? ... =FB&area=3

Since 1991 its kind of wild to see that mares serviced in Kentucky has actually gone up. While everywhere else has gone down significantly. Kentucky only produced 19% of the US foal crop in 1991 while in 2021 they produced 44.8%. If I look at my collection of stallion directories, there is a very noticeable difference of during the bloodstock bubble and after the bloodstock bubble burst. The stallions directories were twice as big before. Like I said in the other thread, Gainesway had 46 stallions in 1982.

I managed to get my hands on a 1945 California Thoroughbred magazine that had a stallion roster list inside of it. 135 stallions listed at that time. The fact CA is already well below that number this year is not a great outlook.

[Flanders]

I managed to get my hands on a 1945 California Thoroughbred magazine that had a stallion roster list inside of it. 135 stallions listed at that time. The fact CA is already well below that number this year is not a great outlook.

Its not just California, regional breeding has plummeted everywhere.

1991 there were 64,124 mares covered by 6,696 stallions. Kentucky - 14,778 mares covered by 499 stallions. So 49,346 mares were covered outside of Kentucky.
2023 there were 26,434 mares covered covered by 930 stallions. Kentucky - 17,026 mares covered by 203 stallions.

So in 1991, 49,346 mares were covered outside of Kentucky. In 2021 it was 9,408. That is such a massive drop for regional breeding that its insane. Its pretty much 40,000 less mares in 30 years.

I know we have talked about the narrowing of pedigrees and this is interesting if you haven't seen it before. It shows unique sires in the 1st-5th sire line by foals bred that year, the data is for every 10 years from 1970 to 2020 + 2021.
https://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp? ... es&area=21
In 2021, there were only 70 unique 5th generation stallions that show up in foals. Then when you click on the number its just who you would expect. Stallions, their sons and grandsons, maybe even great grandson holding all the high numbers. Very few interesting names outside of that and if they are, they have less than 10 foals usually 1.

[stelladaniella]

I never realised that Ruffian's half sister (or 3/4? She's by Bold Ruler) Laughter produced well known horses. Produced Private Terms, who in their turn sired Afternoon Deelites.
Also produced Laughing Look (by Damascus) who is the dam of Coronado's Quest.
Also of her descendants are Steel Maiden, who produced Mesabi Maiden, who produced Lady Liberty.. the dam of Orb. Wow.

This came to mind after visiting Claiborne and seeing Private Terms tombstone, the guide mentioned he was o/o Laughter. That made me go !!! cause I knew I had heard or seen that name before.

I know it's probably common knowledge already tho as it's been mentioned in the thread, but wanted to share!

[stelladaniella]

Nice in-depth article of Adare Manors damside.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing ... reputation

[Flanders]

Nice in-depth article of Adare Manors damside.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing ... reputation

Its a good read. I do feel the need to say this part was quite a reach...

"It's likely that Explosive Story was sent to a son of Giant's Causeway because of the success of her half sister Effie Trinket. A daughter of Freud —a full brother to Giant's Causeway—Effie Trinket won four stakes events in New York and took second in the 2013 Mrs. Revere Stakes (G2T) and third in the 2014 Honey Fox Stakes (G2T) and Churchill Distaff Turf Mile Stakes (G2T)."

Since Effie Trinket was 1 when Explosive Story was sent to Giant Gizmo, I highly doubt that was the case.

[stelladaniella]

Nice in-depth article of Adare Manors damside.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing ... reputation

Its a good read. I do feel the need to say this part was quite a reach...

"It's likely that Explosive Story was sent to a son of Giant's Causeway because of the success of her half sister Effie Trinket. A daughter of Freud —a full brother to Giant's Causeway—Effie Trinket won four stakes events in New York and took second in the 2013 Mrs. Revere Stakes (G2T) and third in the 2014 Honey Fox Stakes (G2T) and Churchill Distaff Turf Mile Stakes (G2T)."

Since Effie Trinket was 1 when Explosive Story was sent to Giant Gizmo, I highly doubt that was the case.

Hahaha, I didn’t really look it up, that’s amusing.