2024 TRAVERS

[Curtis]

I'm not at all against Thorpedo Anna going to the Travers instead of continuing to beat up on the 3 y/o fillies, and there's still plenty of time for her to test older mares (she won't have a choice in the latter matter if she goes to the Distaff).

The colts seem to be consistently good this year but at the same time neither of them appear to be "world beaters" at the moment. I much prefer years like this to the ones where one or two colts dominate tiny fields all year.

I don't remember if it was Swiss Skydiver but didn't McPeek have another good filly he was pointing to the Travers that ended up not going? I just hope she makes it. Good for the sport.

If you mean because Thorpedo Anna will divert some betting money it’s good for the sport, yeah maybe. Personally, I’d rather see her in the Alabama and ultimately the BC Distaff.

Agree-mares on dirt in distance races against males tend to burn out and not race as well after. I hope she does well but think this will be too tough.

It always comes down to what’s going to be next. If the idea is she’ll soon have nothing left to prove and will end up in the Keeneland Fall Sale post BC then okay, it’s a calculated risk. If the plan is to race her next year, I don’t like the idea. But she’s not mine.

[Northport]

Kenny said on the Owner's Box podcast last week that (since he owns a part of her, but not a majority of her) that the dream is for her to never go through the sales ring. He just doesn't see any filly or mare that can compete with her before the Distaff (in the Alabama or Cotillion), so why not see just how good she is. If she wins, it's Hall of Fame and Horse of the Year conversations.

I'd definitely recommend listening to the entire episode for an in depth explanation from Kenny as to how and why he is targetting the Travers.

[Curtis]

Kenny said on the Owner's Box podcast last week that (since he owns a part of her, but not a majority of her) that the dream is for her to never go through the sales ring. He just doesn't see any filly or mare that can compete with her before the Distaff (in the Alabama or Cotillion), so why not see just how good she is. If she wins, it's Hall of Fame and Horse of the Year conversations.

I'd definitely recommend listening to the entire episode for an in depth explanation from Kenny as to how and why he is targetting the Travers.

It’s fine, I just don’t agree with him. There are a countless number of fillies in the HoF that didn’t run in the Travers. If the idea is to keep her, I would keep her in restricted races and then next year try the BC Classic. If she loses her form, it wasn’t meant to be. Her numbers don’t tower over the males. I don’t see her as being different from Songbird who, deceptively, looked like she might be competitive with the best males. As for Horse of the Year—I’ll preface this by mentioning I give very little credence to Eclipse Awards—she’ll be fine if she keeps doing what she’s doing and wins the BC Distaff convincingly. The males keep beating each other. Maybe Dornoch wins his next race and then the Classic or National Treasure boat races the Whitney and finds a way to win the Classic which would earn them the award. There’s no precedent for her to win HOY by staying in her division—as a 3yo filly— but the award is far more about specialization than it used to be. I don’t like seeing fillies run against colts until mid to late fall in these kinds of races. It pretty much always goes against the longevity of the filly’s career. But no risk, no reward.

[Mylute]

1. It's not like females competing against males is an every day, constant occurrence in North America.

2. We need to decide if we want trainers/owners to be more "sporting" like "the old days" or if we want them to never try anything at all.

[Cigarillo]

1. It's not like females competing against males is an every day, constant occurrence in North America.

2. We need to decide if we want trainers/owners to be more "sporting" like "the old days" or if we want them to never try anything at all.

I don't have an opinion on what's best for her longer term. That's a bit out of my purview.

That being said, I really like when owners and trainers bring their best. It's great to see them go at each other as opposed to ducking and diving other good horses. I don't think she'll win, but I hope she runs well and comes out of it healthy.

[Curtis]

1. It's not like females competing against males is an every day, constant occurrence in North America.

2. We need to decide if we want trainers/owners to be more "sporting" like "the old days" or if we want them to never try anything at all.

“We” don’t have to decide anything. The horses should decide based on their performance. When you put “the old days” in quotes, I’m not sure if you mean 2004 or 1954 or something in between. When Gallorette, Two Lea, etc. ran 9-10f races against males, races were run much differently. They were more akin to turf races. Bill Shoemaker had a profound effect on how races were run. He put horses on the engine once the gates opened and horses started running harder throughout. So it’s not that US trainers have lost their nerve and other countries are more sporting, it’s that racing on dirt from 8-10f has as much to do with physical strength as anything. Mares are also easier to sour and once they have, it’s pretty rare to turn them back around. I have no problem sprinting a mare against any and all comers any day of the week. I have no problem sending them 11f or more. Turf, pretty much any distance. You have to be really careful though sending them into open races from 8-10f on the dirt. You can win the battle but lose the war, not just live in the moment.

[stark]

Does anybody happen to know if TAnna has worked out in tandem with a male horse?

I've heard it said that even a simple workout can sour a horse and mess with their head if they get dusted.

And it's not just a female thing, young 2YOs getting humiliated by an older horse in a workout is usually no bueno too.

[brunanas]

Does anybody happen to know if TAnna has worked out in tandem with a male horse?

I've heard it said that even a simple workout can sour a horse and mess with their head if they get dusted.

Thorpedo Anna Will Run Against The Boys In The Travers
https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/t ... e-travers/

McPeek said that Thorpedo Anna had worked against future Kentucky Derby winner Mystik Dan (Goldencents) all winter long. “She made him huff and puff on a regular basis. She helped him win the Kentucky Derby because she got him ready. He would come back and go, 'woah, what is that?' And then she's worked against Gould's Gold (Goldencents) and he can't handle her at all. She gallops out way in front of him.”

[stark]

Does anybody happen to know if TAnna has worked out in tandem with a male horse?

I've heard it said that even a simple workout can sour a horse and mess with their head if they get dusted.

Thorpedo Anna Will Run Against The Boys In The Travers
https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/t ... e-travers/

McPeek said that Thorpedo Anna had worked against future Kentucky Derby winner Mystik Dan (Goldencents) all winter long. “She made him huff and puff on a regular basis. She helped him win the Kentucky Derby because she got him ready. He would come back and go, 'woah, what is that?' And then she's worked against Gould's Gold (Goldencents) and he can't handle her at all. She gallops out way in front of him.”

Okay, thanks, perhaps she really will handle the mental side of the equation.
Doesn't change my mind any that she isn't fast enough against these horses who are improving with age.

[Curtis]

Does anybody happen to know if TAnna has worked out in tandem with a male horse?

I've heard it said that even a simple workout can sour a horse and mess with their head if they get dusted.

Thorpedo Anna Will Run Against The Boys In The Travers
https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/t ... e-travers/

McPeek said that Thorpedo Anna had worked against future Kentucky Derby winner Mystik Dan (Goldencents) all winter long. “She made him huff and puff on a regular basis. She helped him win the Kentucky Derby because she got him ready. He would come back and go, 'woah, what is that?' And then she's worked against Gould's Gold (Goldencents) and he can't handle her at all. She gallops out way in front of him.”

Okay, thanks, perhaps she really will handle the mental side of the equation.
Doesn't change my mind any that she isn't fast enough against these horses who are improving with age.

Yeah it’s her numbers, ie. how fast she is, that I’m basing my opinion. I figure McPeek is doing the right things in terms of training. And you know she might pull it off, but I’m betting against her the next time. To me the juice isn’t worth the squeeze but she’s not my horse. It’s unfathomable that it was 50 years ago but Chris Evert, who was at least as good as Thorpedo Anna, ran a good third in the Travers and she was never really the same again. That crop of colts was not as good as this one. They were more seasoned but I think this group has deeper talent. Chris Evert was best of a deep, talented bunch of 3yo fillies that year and looked on paper like she could easily compete with the boys.

[Diver52]

Christ Evert won the filly Triple Crown as it was then (Acorn, Mother Goose, CCA Oaks) and was bred to Secretariat. What do you suppose their foal was named? (Stark and Curtis are not eligible.) The filly foal was GSP and produced a champion juvenile.

[brunanas]

Christ Evert won the filly Triple Crown as it was then (Acorn, Mother Goose, CCA Oaks) and was bred to Secretariat. What do you suppose their foal was named? (Stark and Curtis are not eligible.) The filly foal was GSP and produced a champion juvenile.

idk why it only now just clicked why she's named Sic Crowns.

[Tessablue]

I think it will be a tall order for Thorpedo Anna, but I'm just not convinced by the argument that these races are uniquely debilitating for female horses. Rachel is often used as a classic example, but she didn't race again that year because her owner didn't like synth, and then she just wasn't as good at 4. It happens to plenty of horses. Swiss Skydiver lost the Distaff at the start and then didn't really go on at 4, Rags to Riches came out of the Gazelle with an injury and never fully recovered... I see the argument, I don't fully disagree with it, but horses aren't always good for long. Race 'em while you've got 'em, you know? And then her legacy is assured whether she fires in the BC or not.

I probably won't bet her, and her figures aren't quite there. But, to memory, neither were Rags' figures- and that's still my favorite race of all time. There were so many dudes in the Belmont stands that day who couldn't help but tell the women around them that Rags didn't belong. I'd be thrilled to see a new generation of racing fans get to experience what I felt that day.

[Curtis]

I think it will be a tall order for Thorpedo Anna, but I'm just not convinced by the argument that these races are uniquely debilitating for female horses. Rachel is often used as a classic example, but she didn't race again that year because her owner didn't like synth, and then she just wasn't as good at 4. It happens to plenty of horses. Swiss Skydiver lost the Distaff at the start and then didn't really go on at 4, Rags to Riches came out of the Gazelle with an injury and never fully recovered... I see the argument, I don't fully disagree with it, but horses aren't always good for long. Race 'em while you've got 'em, you know? And then her legacy is assured whether she fires in the BC or not.

I probably won't bet her, and her figures aren't quite there. But, to memory, neither were Rags' figures- and that's still my favorite race of all time. There were so many dudes in the Belmont stands that day who couldn't help but tell the women around them that Rags didn't belong. I'd be thrilled to see a new generation of racing fans get to experience what I felt that day.

Rags to Riches doesn’t fit the example, at least mine. I have no problem with 12f. It’s 8-10f that I’ve noticed the problem. I thought at the time Rags had a big shot since she was bred for the trip and it was a good time to go against Curlin.

[Curtis]

Christ Evert won the filly Triple Crown as it was then (Acorn, Mother Goose, CCA Oaks) and was bred to Secretariat. What do you suppose their foal was named? (Stark and Curtis are not eligible.) The filly foal was GSP and produced a champion juvenile.

idk why it only now just clicked why she's named Sic Crowns.

I believe you don’t mean Sic, sic, Crowns. You mean Six Crowns. Nor did Diver mean Christ Evert. Neither Jimmy Connors nor Martina Navratilova believed that. Miss Musket maybe.

[Diver52]

Christ Evert won the filly Triple Crown as it was then (Acorn, Mother Goose, CCA Oaks) and was bred to Secretariat. What do you suppose their foal was named? (Stark and Curtis are not eligible.) The filly foal was GSP and produced a champion juvenile.

idk why it only now just clicked why she's named Sic Crowns.

I believe you don’t mean Sic, sic, Crowns. You mean Six Crowns. Nor did Diver mean Christ Evert. Neither Jimmy Connors nor Martina Navratilova believed that. Miss Musket maybe.

I should put Chief's Crown on the Breeding & Sales list of disappointing sires. By Danzig out of a Secretariat mare, Chris Evert as second dam. My mother and I drove down to Hollywood Park (about 75 miles west) and the parking was so chaotic that we missed the race. (The BCJ of Chief's Crown, BCC. . . Wild Again? I can visualize the day but not the details.

[Flanders]

idk why it only now just clicked why she's named Sic Crowns.

I believe you don’t mean Sic, sic, Crowns. You mean Six Crowns. Nor did Diver mean Christ Evert. Neither Jimmy Connors nor Martina Navratilova believed that. Miss Musket maybe.

I should put Chief's Crown on the Breeding & Sales list of disappointing sires. By Danzig out of a Secretariat mare, Chris Evert as second dam. My mother and I drove down to Hollywood Park (about 75 miles west) and the parking was so chaotic that we missed the race. (The BCJ of Chief's Crown, BCC. . . Wild Again? I can visualize the day but not the details.

yeah BCC was Wild Again.

I don't think Chief's Crown was a disappointing stallion, maybe disappointing in that he was NOT a dirt sire. His best were turf runners and a lot were not in North America. I never even saw him run but my local library had a book about him that I borrowed numerous times. So he has always held a special place in my heart because of that. The first horse I felt like I knew their whole story, well to the point he retired to stud anyway. He had to be putdown partway through the breeding season when he was just 15. He fractured his knee in a paddock accident. He ended up with 8% SWs though. He looked like he had an heir, but then Grand Lodge died at 12, from the same thing. And Sinndar really didn't carry on Grand Lodge's line though he did better than Grandera. Sinndar's son Youmzain went to Turkey after not succeeding in Ireland and he does have son at stud there(Hasafet whose first foals are yearlings), so maybe the line will continue.

His only G1 on the dirt was Chief Honcho, who won a G1 at 5. He didn't go to stud until he was 6 in 1994 and died in 1998. He didn't sire anything though, I couldn't name a foal that raced. The only one I could is Count Our Blessing, the 2nd foal Genuine Risk produced.

[tachyon]

I'm not at all against Thorpedo Anna going to the Travers instead of continuing to beat up on the 3 y/o fillies, and there's still plenty of time for her to test older mares (she won't have a choice in the latter matter if she goes to the Distaff).

The colts seem to be consistently good this year but at the same time neither of them appear to be "world beaters" at the moment. I much prefer years like this to the ones where one or two colts dominate tiny fields all year.

I don't remember if it was Swiss Skydiver but didn't McPeek have another good filly he was pointing to the Travers that ended up not going? I just hope she makes it. Good for the sport.

Go Thorpedo Anna, go!!!
I can't wait for this year's Travers! , even if I know that it's much more difficult for the F&Ms to beat the boys on the dirt than on the turf.

It looks like Mr McPeek has been innovative since his early days.
Personally I was a big fan of Hard Buck(BRZ) who finished 2nd in the G1 King George at Ascot twenty years ago.
It was ultra-rare that US-based turf horses ran in the big races in Europe those days.

[Curtis]

idk why it only now just clicked why she's named Sic Crowns.

I believe you don’t mean Sic, sic, Crowns. You mean Six Crowns. Nor did Diver mean Christ Evert. Neither Jimmy Connors nor Martina Navratilova believed that. Miss Musket maybe.

I should put Chief's Crown on the Breeding & Sales list of disappointing sires. By Danzig out of a Secretariat mare, Chris Evert as second dam. My mother and I drove down to Hollywood Park (about 75 miles west) and the parking was so chaotic that we missed the race. (The BCJ of Chief's Crown, BCC. . . Wild Again? I can visualize the day but not the details.

I dunno why the tough beats are so easy to recall in detail but I had one of my tougher ones that day. I had to work and couldn’t get out of it and liked Fran’s Valentine who was going to be a price in the Juvenile Filly. My Uncle was working his very first day as a Tote Teller and he called and asked if I wanted to bet anything. Nothing like fostering illegal bookmaking on your first day. So I asked him to put $2 to win on Fran’s Valentine. He asked, “You sure!?” So I get home from work and fire up the VCR. Fran’s Valentine and PVal come bounding out of the fray to win convincingly at around 60-1. And then up goes the inquiry sign and soon Outstandingly became the winner, and she wasn’t involved with the crime! I call that day the non-Catholic Agony and Ecstasy.

[Diver52]

Yep, we'd made our way into the grandstand by then! She was a Cal-bred IIRC and I was crushed by the DQ on a pride-of-state basis. Owned by Earl Scheib of the auto-painting business--"99 dollars, no ups no extras!"