Buzzer issue still unresolved

Ballerina · Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:03 pm

When Moreno first came up on the radar screen, I said it would be foolhardy to ignore this horse in tris and supers, but I doubted his distance capabilities. His class and desire to win is what got him to his spots on the board. Helluva horse - I'd never take that away from him, but even a helluva horse can have limitations. If the connections are satisfied with 2nd and 3rd place money, who am I to say they should change their strategy. After all, he is a gelding. Maybe in later years, they can do something different with him. In the meantime, I just hope he doesn't hurt himself trying so hard.

Somnambulist · Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:11 pm

Distance limitations based on what, though? I'm not trying to admonish you and really just trying to get your view in full.

Ballerina · Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:28 pm

Somnambulist wrote:Distance limitations based on what, though? I'm not trying to admonish you and really just trying to get your view in full.

The fact that he hasn't won at greater than 8-1/2?!~

This guy may be a late bloomer. Who really knows. It took him 10 tries to break his maiden. His race in the Travers looked like a tired horse running that final furlong but trying his gutsy little heart out.

One of my heart horses - Medaglia D'Oro - wasn't a classic distance horse. He won the Travers, but always finished 2nd or up the track in distances over 9 furlongs - as did his daughter when she tried it. Are either any less of a horse for it? Most certainly not.

What the heck is so objectionable saying a horse has distance limitations?!~

Somnambulist · Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:34 pm

Ballerina wrote:.What the heck is so objectionable saying a horse has distance limitations?!~

Do you sit there, waiting with baited breath and ready to pounce over legitimately everything on this board? If not, please calm down. if so, I can link you any number of relaxation techniques. Life is not that serious. I assure you - my life's purpose is not to make you irritated, as much as you might like to think otherwise.

It's a difference of opinion. IMO, the only good way to learn is to fully understand a viewpoint you don't necessarily "get". Who knows, maybe I'd learn or gain something from it. It was a question. There was nothing more intended. Jesus.

Ballerina · Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:39 pm

Somnambulist wrote:
Ballerina wrote:.What the heck is so objectionable saying a horse has distance limitations?!~
Do you sit there, waiting with baited breath and ready to pounce over legitimately everything on this board? If not, please calm down. if so, I can link you any number of relaxation techniques. Life is not that serious. I assure you - my life's purpose is not to make you irritated, as much as you might like to think otherwise.

It's a difference of opinion. IMO, the only good way to learn is to fully understand a viewpoint you don't necessarily "get". Who knows, maybe I'd learn or gain something from it. It was a question. There was nothing more intended. Jesus.

C'mon, Som, you don't wish to admonish, but you have no problem being condescending? I'm perfectly calm over this somewhat disagreement. And there was nothing confrontational meant by my question you quoted. You just decided to take it out of context from all that I wrote previous to it.

dustino140 · Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:44 pm

Ballerina wrote:When Moreno first came up on the radar screen, I said it would be foolhardy to ignore this horse in tris and supers, but I doubted his distance capabilities. His class and desire to win is what got him to his spots on the board. Helluva horse - I'd never take that away from him, but even a helluva horse can have limitations. If the connections are satisfied with 2nd and 3rd place money, who am I to say they should change their strategy. After all, he is a gelding. Maybe in later years, they can do something different with him. In the meantime, I just hope he doesn't hurt himself trying so hard.

What are his perceived 'distance limitations' based on? Something more than your own bias, I trust. It's not really his race results. However, what exactly do you recommend they do with him? You've given one race that really only works if the Breeders' Cup Dirt Mile is around two turns. Again, this horse wouldn't hold a candle to the likes of Cross Traffic, Sahara Sky, Verrazano, etc. going one turn. So, what's his campaign? What do you before the Breeders' Cup?

You seem to be convinced that his connections are doing it all wrong, yet they lost a 50/50 head-bob in the Travers and placed in the Jim Dandy and PA Derby against horses that were simply better. Ultimately, I think that's what it comes down to - Moreno simply isn't on par with Palace Malice, Orb, Will Take Charge, etc. No shame with that. At the end of the day, he's just a decent racehorse that will never really light the racing world ablaze. He has come much closer to winning at 10f than he has at less than a mile, though.

dustino140 · Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:47 pm

Ballerina wrote:
Somnambulist wrote:His race in the Travers looked like a tired horse running that final furlong but trying his gutsy little heart out.

In fairness, they all looked like hell coming down the lane. Moreno, Orb and even Will Take Charge looked like they were pushing the wall. The only one that really looked like he had anything left in the tank was Palace Malice and he had to run so hard to just move into contention on that track that he was out of hope about 2 minutes earlier.

At the end of the day, I think the conclusion we derive from this year's 3yos is that none of them really stood out, which is fine. The older horses in the US are very good right now, and none of of these 3yos is probably running for better than a well beaten 3rd in the Classic.

Ballerina · Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:56 pm

dustino140 wrote:
Ballerina wrote:When Moreno first came up on the radar screen, I said it would be foolhardy to ignore this horse in tris and supers, but I doubted his distance capabilities. His class and desire to win is what got him to his spots on the board. Helluva horse - I'd never take that away from him, but even a helluva horse can have limitations. If the connections are satisfied with 2nd and 3rd place money, who am I to say they should change their strategy. After all, he is a gelding. Maybe in later years, they can do something different with him. In the meantime, I just hope he doesn't hurt himself trying so hard.
What are his perceived 'distance limitations' based on? Something more than your own bias, I trust. It's not really his race results. However, what exactly do you recommend they do with him? You've given one race that really only works if the Breeders' Cup Dirt Mile is around two turns. Again, this horse wouldn't hold a candle to the likes of Cross Traffic, Sahara Sky, Verrazano, etc. going one turn. So, what's his campaign? What do you before the Breeders' Cup?

You seem to be convinced that his connections are doing it all wrong, yet they lost a 50/50 head-bob in the Travers and placed in the Jim Dandy and PA Derby against horses that were simply better. Ultimately, I think that's what it comes down to - Moreno simply isn't on par with Palace Malice, Orb, Will Take Charge, etc. No shame with that. At the end of the day, he's just a decent racehorse that will never really light the racing world ablaze. He has come much closer to winning at 10f than he has at less than a mile, though.

I never said they were doing it all wrong. Gotta rty and they did. Why can't they base a campaign on a more limited distance? Serious question. I'm not being snarky. As much as you don't understand where I'm coming from, the same holds true in reverse. And it doesn't seem that our minds will change - just the conversation diminishing into insults which I have not lobbed... yet.

Ballerina · Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:58 pm

Looking at the title of this thread, anyone know why NYRA hasn't made a determination on this issue yet?

Somnambulist · Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:05 pm

Ballerina wrote:I never said they were doing it all wrong. Gotta rty and they did. Why can't they base a campaign on a more limited distance? Serious question. I'm not being snarky. As much as you don't understand where I'm coming from, the same holds true in reverse. And it doesn't seem that our minds will change - just the conversation diminishing into insults which I have not lobbed... yet.

Yes yes, I understand it's a forum and text with no verbal communication following it. This is what makes texting and e-mailing a horrific form of communication. Given that, I would, if I were you, re-read your statement and see how I could construe it a certain way. I asked a simple question with my intent specifically stated. You responded enigmatically, and given your track record of tiffs with any given number of posters on this forum I apologize most whole hardheartedly for taking it the wrong way.

Ballerina · Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:09 pm

Somnambulist wrote:
Ballerina wrote:I never said they were doing it all wrong. Gotta rty and they did. Why can't they base a campaign on a more limited distance? Serious question. I'm not being snarky. As much as you don't understand where I'm coming from, the same holds true in reverse. And it doesn't seem that our minds will change - just the conversation diminishing into insults which I have not lobbed... yet.
Yes yes, I understand it's a forum and text with no verbal communication following it. This is what makes texting and e-mailing a horrific form of communication. Given that, I would, if I were you, re-read your statement and see how I could construe it a certain way. I asked a simple question with my intent specifically stated. You responded enigmatically, and given your track record of tiffs with any given number of posters on this forum I apologize most whole hardheartedly for taking it the wrong way.

Oh, gee, your latest post makes me feel a whole lot better. And you, dear heart and gentle one, never cross swords with anyone.... do you?!~

And I did answer your question - the very first sentence. Maybe you don't like my response, but it's the reason why I feel the horse has distance limitations. And, I'm not the first person on this forum to talk about horses who are in over their heads going for longer distances.

pointgivenfan · Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:35 pm

Ballerina wrote:I hasten to add, when Curlin lost the Belmont by a nose, it was said he couldn't get 12 furlongs. I argued that losing by a nose didn't mean he couldn't get 12 furlongs - he just couldn't get it that day and probably would never get the opportunity to try again. I remember how many people told me how foolish my logic was. Funny how the dichotomy changes over the years.

How did a horse who shaded 24 seconds in the last quarter of his Belmont not get twelve furlongs that day?
He didn't get it as fast as Rags to Riches did, but he did get it.

blamethewinner · Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:38 pm

Ballerina wrote:Looking at the title of this thread, anyone know why NYRA hasn't made a determination on this issue yet?

It has nothing to do with NYRA.

The gaming commission has to do the investigation and will let the result of it be known.

Somnambulist · Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:39 pm

Ballerina wrote:Oh, gee, your latest post makes me feel a whole lot better. And you, dear heart and gentle one, never cross swords with anyone.... do you?!~

I do, frequently. Even in sarcasm you're the only person that's ever called me gentle. It's what happens when you (myself) don't really like anyone. I can't speak for you, but when I know I'm up against similar (in the terms of the witchy department) I end up giving up. We'll get nowhere.

As for the gaming commission, it's NY state. They drag their asses on everything. It took my entire duration of college for them to finally finish their roadwork on Ocean Parkway, and then after all of that they incorrectly spelled Jones Beach to "Jons Beach" on the causeway signs or something equally as ridiculous. I was especially happy this year when I paid my state taxes.

dustino140 · Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:52 pm

Ballerina wrote:
dustino140 wrote:
Ballerina wrote:When Moreno first came up on the radar screen, I said it would be foolhardy to ignore this horse in tris and supers, but I doubted his distance capabilities. His class and desire to win is what got him to his spots on the board. Helluva horse - I'd never take that away from him, but even a helluva horse can have limitations. If the connections are satisfied with 2nd and 3rd place money, who am I to say they should change their strategy. After all, he is a gelding. Maybe in later years, they can do something different with him. In the meantime, I just hope he doesn't hurt himself trying so hard.
What are his perceived 'distance limitations' based on? Something more than your own bias, I trust. It's not really his race results. However, what exactly do you recommend they do with him? You've given one race that really only works if the Breeders' Cup Dirt Mile is around two turns. Again, this horse wouldn't hold a candle to the likes of Cross Traffic, Sahara Sky, Verrazano, etc. going one turn. So, what's his campaign? What do you before the Breeders' Cup?

You seem to be convinced that his connections are doing it all wrong, yet they lost a 50/50 head-bob in the Travers and placed in the Jim Dandy and PA Derby against horses that were simply better. Ultimately, I think that's what it comes down to - Moreno simply isn't on par with Palace Malice, Orb, Will Take Charge, etc. No shame with that. At the end of the day, he's just a decent racehorse that will never really light the racing world ablaze. He has come much closer to winning at 10f than he has at less than a mile, though.
I never said they were doing it all wrong. Gotta rty and they did. Why can't they base a campaign on a more limited distance? Serious question. I'm not being snarky. As much as you don't understand where I'm coming from, the same holds true in reverse. And it doesn't seem that our minds will change - just the conversation diminishing into insults which I have not lobbed... yet.

I don't have any problem with the campaign they've given him. He seems like a horse whose best races are going to come while routing. Next year, I think it'd be most advantageous for them to target races like the New Orleans Handicap, Suburban, Hal's Hope and Woodward with him.

Ballerina · Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:56 pm

pointgivenfan wrote: How did a horse who shaded 24 seconds in the last quarter of his Belmont not get twelve furlongs that day?
He didn't get it as fast as Rags to Riches did, but he did get it.

You're arguing to the choir. I'm just saying that some people said and remain saying that Curlin couldn't win at 12 furlongs based on that one race. Silly, silly, silly. But at the time, there were people who argued otherwise, and I didn't see the heavy hitters that were heretofore mentioned in this thread take them to task for it. Maybe they felt it wasn't worth arguing about because it was silly.

Ballerina · Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:58 pm

blamethewinner wrote:
Ballerina wrote:Looking at the title of this thread, anyone know why NYRA hasn't made a determination on this issue yet?
It has nothing to do with NYRA.

The gaming commission has to do the investigation and will let the result of it be known.

Correct, (pardone my miswrite) but they sure are taking their Benghazi time about it.

Somnambulist · Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:01 pm

Ballerina wrote: You're arguing to the choir. I'm just saying that some people said and remain saying that Curlin couldn't win at 12 furlongs based on that one race. Silly, silly, silly. But at the time, there were people who argued otherwise, and I didn't see the heavy hitters that were heretofore mentioned in this thread take them to task for it. Maybe they felt it wasn't worth arguing about because it was silly.

I had briefly stopped following this sport from May, 08-the beginning of '10. Actually, one of the biggest regrets of my short life is not going around the block to watch the 10 million dollar man run. I can't speak for D, because I thought he was such a massive dick I had him on ignore during the little I checked in on the sport. I sincerely doubt he would think the horse wasn't good at 12f. That defies logic (something he's more or less always been).

dustino140 · Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:18 pm

Somnambulist wrote:I can't speak for D, because I thought he was such a massive dick I had him on ignore during the little I checked in on the sport.

I love you too...

Ballerina · Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:25 pm

Somnambulist wrote:
I had briefly stopped following this sport from May, 08-the beginning of '10. Actually, one of the biggest regrets of my short life is not going around the block to watch the 10 million dollar man run. I can't speak for D, because I thought he was such a massive dick I had him on ignore during the little I checked in on the sport. I sincerely doubt he would think the horse wasn't good at 12f. That defies logic (something he's more or less always been).

Curlin ran the Belmont in 2007. To the best of my recollection, D. wasn't part of the conversation about Curlin not getting 12 furlongs. Some of the comments were "He couldn't beat a girl." "He'd never beat Rags." "He barely beat Street Sense." Stupid stuff like that.